Gruesome Murder, Missing Killer - John List - Love and Murder Podcast: Heartbreak to Homicide

man murders entire family and disappears. the case of john list

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**Episode Transcription

In the fall of 1971, a husband shoots his mother, his wife, and his 3 kids. He got hungry, made a sandwich, got in his car, drove to the bank, and vanished for nearly 2 decades. This is the case of John List right now on Love and Murder

Welcome everyone! Welcome to a new episode of Love and Murder – the weekly true crime podcast discussing relationships gone terribly wrong. Where our motto is, you’re either someone’s last love or first murder

I am your host Ky and In today’s episode, we’re talking about a case of egotism and murder.

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In the meantime though, grab your butts, grab your apple juice, and let’s get into some Love and Murder.…

Born around 1925 and raised in Bay City, Michigan, John was an only child of John Frederick List and Alma Barbara Florence. Right after he graduated highschool in 1943, he enlisted in the Army and served under an MOS as a lab tech. At this time, World War II was going on so he basically was serving during this time. In 1944 his father died and 2 years later he was discharged from the military. It seems like it was an honorable discharge, meaning he didn’t do anything to be kicked out. After he left the military, he went to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and got a bachelor’s in business administration and a master’s in accounting.

In November 1950, with another war going on, the Korean War, John was recalled to active duty and pcs-ed to VA. At Fort Eustis VA, he met a woman named Helen Morris Taylor.

Helen, at this time, was a widow and a single mother of a daughter named Brenda. She had been married to an officer who had been killed in action in Korea.

A year after meeting, in December 1, 1951, John and Helen got married in Balitmore, MD and moved to California.

John then went to work in the financing department for the Army.

In 1952, after he left the army again, he moved to Detroit, MI and went to first work at an accounting firm, then as an audit supervisor in Kalamazoo. It was here that John and Helen had 3 children.

In 1959, he had been promoted to general supervisor in the company.

In 1960, Brenda got married and went to move on her own. John got a new job with Xerox in Rochester, NY and moved the rest of the family there. Eventually, he became the director of accounting services and in 1965, he accepted another promotion; this time as the VP at a bank in Jersey City, NJ. Once again, him and his family moved.

Everything seemed great. John was seemingly the epitome of a successful family man. With a prestigious job as an accountant, he provided for his wife, mother, and three children in a lavish New Jersey mansion in Westfield, New Jersey; everyone lived in the same house. And by house, I mean 19 rooms, marble fireplace, a ballroom, and a Tiffany skylight – whatever that is.

He came from a devout Lutheran background and followed in his father’s footsteps as a Sunday school teacher.

However; before Brenda had moved out, Helen had become an alcoholic and was slowly becoming worse.

Then, John’s seemingly perfect life began to unravel. In 1971, when he was 46 years old, he lost his job at the bank. Despite his efforts, he struggled to get stable employment, and the weight of his financial crisis became increasingly unbearable. However, he couldn’t bring himself to tell his family that he was unemployed. He felt ashamed, alone, and felt like he was a failure.

“I grew up with the idea that you should provide for your family and to do that you had to be a success in the job that you had — or you’re a failure, and that was not a good thing to be.”

Anyway, Helen would constantly compare John to her late husband by saying things like, “If you were half the man my first husband was, we wouldn’t be having the troubles we’re having.” The strain on their relationship was unmistakable; giving John more of a reason to pretend that he hadn’t lost his job.

To cope with his situation, John developed a routine. He would spend his days at the train station, pretending to go to work, while secretly diverting funds from his mother’s bank accounts to cover the mortgage. This act of embezzlement allowed him to keep up appearances, shielding his family from the impending financial ruin. He absolutely refused the idea of seeking welfare assistance; employing his principles of self-sufficiency and refusing to face the shame and humiliation it would bring upon his family. More than self-sufficiency, I think he was afraid of embarrassment.

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As the walls closed in on him, John found himself trapped in a devastating predicament. Consumed by his mounting financial troubles and the fear of societal judgment and a foreclosure letter that had come in the mail, he believed he had reached a point of no return. So, instead of getting on welfare as a stepping stone in getting his life back together while being able to take care of his family, John came up with another plan altogether.

With calculating resolve, John meticulously planned the execution of his plan. He went home and told his wife what was going on financially, they came up with a plan to sell the house and use the money for an apartment and expenses while waiting to get back on their feet. John went out and looked for a job and so did his wife. And they lived happily ever after. Yea. That would be the logical and rational thing to do, but this is Love and Murder.

Instead of using logic, John carried out his ACTUAL plan. He grabbed a 9mm Steyr 1912 semi-automatic handgun – a souviner he’d actually bought from WWII- and as if that wasn’t enough, he also grabbd his dad’s colt .22 revolver and got started.

“It’s just like D-Day, you go in, there’s no stopping after you start.”

He bought ammo and would go to the shooting range for target practice.

After dinner one night, he asked his wife and sons that if they ever died before him, what would they want done witht heir bodies.

“I remember talking about funerals and cremation and burials. I thought I was being real clever.”

On November 9, 1971, He saw his children off to school as he typically did and then turned his attention to Helen. In the kitchen, while she peacefully sipped her morning coffee, John approached her from behind and without hesitation, he fired a single shot into the back of her head, killing her before she even realized what happened.

“I took a deep breath, walked into the kitchen with my hand on the cold grip of the Steyr, moved up behind my wife, pulled the pistol out and fired into the back of her head for instant effect. I stepped back as her disease-ravaged and now dead body slid silently – sort of in slow motion – to the floor.” He later wrote in his memoir

“I approached all of them from behind so they wouldn’t realize till the last minute what I was going to do to them.”

After this, he went to the third floor of the house, where his elderly mother, Alma was making toast. She greeted him with a kiss and they sat and had a seemingly ordinary conversation. She asked John about the loud noise that had disturbed her. John said he had no idea what she was talking about and then immediately shot his own mother in the face, ending her life without mercy. With his mother’s body now added to his death toll, John continued with his plan.

Returning to the lower level of the house, he dragged Helen’s body into the ballroom and put it on a sleeping bag. He then went around and mopped up all of the blood.

“I had to mop the floor three or four times, and because we had no mop wringer, I had to wring accumulated blood out of the mop by hand.”

John then encountered his daughter Patricia – 16 years old – upon returning from school. Without hesitation, he shot her as well, ending his daughter’s life. When 13 year old Frederick got home from school, he was the next victim. He then made himself a sandwich, because I mean – you gotta eat. I mean – man did you want him to starve to death?! He went out and closed all of his bank accounts and then went to John Jr’s soccer game and cheered him on. After the game, he told him how proud he was of him and drove him home. When he gt home, he shot 15 year old Jr in the chest. However, his gun misfired and Jr tried to defend himself, but it was in vain. John shot him multiple times – emptying both guns into him – and killed him.

“I don’t know whether it was only because he was still jerking that I wanted to make sure that he didn’t suffer, or that it was sort of a way of relieving tension, after having completed what I felt was my assignment for the day.”

In the aftermath of the murders, John carefully arranged the bodies of his wife and children on sleeping bags in the mansion’s ballroom. He didn’t bring his mother down because she was too heavy. He covered their faces and left a note for their pastor because he figured he would be the only one to understand why John did what he did.

His note stated that he felt that this was the only way to stop his family from dealing with poverty and the evil of this world. Doing this would save them he wrote. He then cleaned the entire house and cut himself out of every picture in the house.

He wrote and sent notes to the kid’s schools and jobs stating that they were away helping an elderly grandmother in North Carolina for a few weeks. (In actuality, this grandmother was supposed to come and visit the family but she did, in fact, fall sick. If she had come, John said, he would have killed her too). He then stopped the mail delivery, newspapers, and milk delivery. He turned the lights all on, turned on the radio, and went to sleep. The next morning, drove to the bank to withdraw his mother’s savings, and disappeared from the lives of those who once knew him.

Before we continue, I have a question. If he was supposedly saving his family from these horrors, why didn’t he save himself too? Why was he the only one who got to live?

Neighbors watched the house for a month – you know what I mean. You know you casually pay attention to your neighbors and if you saw that they weren’t coming in or out, not seeing their children, and seeing the lights CONSTANTLY on – you’re gonna think something’s wrong.

On December 7, 1971, Neighbors called 911 for a wellness check. So 2 days short of a full month.

When they opened the door, they heard organ music echoing through the house. I can’t lie LaMs, if I opened a mansion that had no activity for a month and the first thing I hear is organ music ECHOING through the house, I’m out. Like O U T. Sorry. I can’t. Anyway, these people who were braver than me continued into the house. They realized the music was coming through the intercom system of the house (a fact they would have had to share with me down at the precinct.) Next, they found a 5 page note from John explaining what they wre going to find on the ballroom floor. And finally they found the bodies, which by this time should have been badly decomposed. I wonder why the smell wasn’t the first thing that hit then when they opened the house.

Police then went on a search for John, however; they were working with a lack of photos of John. They did find the car at the John F. Kennedy Airport in New York City, but they couldn’t find anything else; no flight details, bus details, or anything.

Nine months after the murders, August 1972, the manion caught on fire and was destroyed. The cause of the fire was officially ruled arson, but to this day, it remains an unsolved mystery, with no suspects identified. Along with the mansion, the legendary ballroom’s exquisite stained glass skylight, rumored to be a priceless Tiffany original worth a staggering $100,000 at the time, (which amounts to about $700,000 now with inflation) was also lost in the flames. In its place, a new house was constructed on the site in 1974.

With each passing day, the trail went colder, and colder until there was literally nothing left. It just became a cold case.

So not only did the case go cold, but For the next 18 years, John remained a fugitive.

Although John had not been found in all of this time, that didn’t mean investigators were not looking for him. They weren’t going to let him get away with what he did.

In 1989, some prosecutors in Jersey came up with a plan – they decided that they were going to get a bust made of John. So they hired a forensic artist named Frank Bender and asked him to make this bust but make sure you age him as you think he would look after 18 years. Working with psychologists, Frank went about sculpting this bust. He gave John a hawk like nose, bushy eyebrows, and glasses. The glasses were a touch from the psychologists stating that he might wear these, like he did when he was younger, as it would remind him of his success. Now, if you look at the bust and you look at John, it’s an exact replica! It’s like the artist was looking at him as he sculped. I have the picture in our Patreon if you want to see it.

Then, they put the bust to use. On May 21, 1989, America’s Most Wanted aired a story of John List’s murders and 22 million people got to see the bust. After that episode the tip line went crazy!

Within 2 weeks of airing the episode, on June 1, 1989, a tip came in from a woman in Richmond, VA who said her next door neighbor looked just like the bust on the episode. His name was Robert Clark. Coincidentally, he’s also an accountant and an avid church goer.

FBI Investigators immediately went to the scene. When they arrived, they knocked on his door and spoke to his WIFE!!! He got married again LaMs!!! She said they met at a church social gathering and he won her over with how nice and genuine he was. Yea right. So was his name still John List? Of course not! He went by the name of Robert Clark.

John/ Robert was arrested, but he said he didn’t know who this John person was. Yes, he looks similar to me, but I’m not a murderer. I’m an acccountant with a family. Investigators said mmhhmm yea ok get in the car “Robert” and took him down to the station. They then extradited him to Jersey where he still kept up his story that he wasn’t this John person.

Finally, after being shown irrefutable evidence which including his damn fingerprints matching his fingerprints (meaning Robert’s matched John’s), on February 16, 1990 he confessed – OK OK you got me. I’m John. To which officers unsurprisingly just stared at him.

So he kept up with this lie for 8 months. I mean he REALLY thought he was going to get away with it.

So here’s the back story:

After he left the house in 1971 and ditched the car at the airport, he took a train from Jersey to Michigan and then decided to go to Colorado. In 1972 he settled down in Denver and worked as a cook at a Holiday Inn. He grew a mustach, wore different style clothing – basically more casual than high end as he was used to – continuously wore a cap and that was it. It’s not like he dyed his hair or grew it out, or got a nose job or anything. Just facial hair and different clothes. Which, actually, according to spies, is enough to change your look as people don’t pay attention to detail that much – unless they are trained to. Shortly after, he started going by the name of Robert Peter “Bob” Clark. Bob was a name he took from one of his college classmates, who came out and told reporters that in no unequivaqual terms was he friends with John. It’s so funny that he came out to let that be known. Anyway, he got a job as an accountant under this new name. Seven years later, he moved on to another job as a comptroller at a job outside of Denver. He did this form 1979 to 1986. By the way, a comptroller is – according to wikipedia – “A comptroller (pronounced either the same as controller or as /kəmpˈtroʊlər/) is a management-level position responsible for supervising the quality of accounting and financial reporting of an organization.” So he was still in the accounting field.

He started going back to church and ran their car pool. One day he met a woman named Delores Miller. In 1985 they were married. In the beginning of 1988 they moved to Virginia and he got a job as an accountant for a small firm. And he just lived out his life.

Fast forward to now:

Finally in prison, John told Delores everything. He cried his way through the story and a guard even overheard him telling her, “I was always such a kind, gentle man except for that one act.” Right. Just that one act.

Delores just couldn’t come to terms that this was the same man she married. She told the press, “I love my husband very deeply. I cannot believe this is the same man.”

In 1990, John went to trial.

His defense was that he suffered from PTSD from his time in the military during World War II and the Korean war. Wait. Didn’t he work in the financing department? What action did he see? Where did he get PTSD from? Papercuts? Seeing a stapler for the first time? I’m really trying to understand. Accountants out there, can you write in and let me know the horrors of your job? I stand with you and thank you for your service. (laugh)

ANYWAY

Psychologists came out and said – yea the reason is most likely that he was going through a mid life crisis. Damn. If that’s accurate, then he shoulda just gotten a car like every other person who goes through a mid life crisis. You could have just taken your new car and abandoned your family. Not that that’s right, but at least they would have been alive you know?

After this, John decided to testify. He said the real issue was his financial problems. It had reached a code red level and he couldnt’ figure out what to do. I mean I can give you a hint, DON’T kill your family. He said that he just didnt’ want his family to know he was a failure. He told the story of how he would continue his daily routine. He said he was syphoning money from his mom’s account to keep the house paid and told his kids to get part time jobs in the guise of them being responsible. It was actually because he needed the money. So why couldn’t he get a part time job? Anyway, he was also dealing with Helen’s alcoholism and revealed that she had tertiary syphilis that wasn’t being treated. According to the CDC, tertiary syphilis is an STI that’s a form of syphilis and affects the heart, memory, and leads to personality changes. It shows approximately 3 to 15 years after the initial infection. It’s treated by penicillin and is not infectious. Helen got it from her first husband and she didn’t tell anyone for 18 years.

He said, as a matter of fact, he didn’t even want to marry Helen, but she tricked him into believing that she was pregnant. She then pressured him into marrying her in Maryland which didn’t require each party to get the premarital syphilis test – where almost all of the other states required this test before marriage. Even though it kept affecting her health, she never told her doctors or John – until her doctors did a full checkup of her in 1969 and this information was revealed. However, by then, she’d been riddled with the infection without treatment for a number of years along with being an alcoholic and John said this had, “”transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt and paranoid recluse.” She also constantly compared him to her first husband, as I told you before, and he just couldn’t take it.

After the court made him see a psychiatrist, the Dr testified that John had OCD and he came to the conclusion that he only had two solutions to his problems. He could either get on welfare and take care of his family, his kids, while he worked hard to rebuilt his finances and work his way off of welfare. However, this would teach the kids a valuable lesson that money is fleeting and this is how you deal in times of hardship. We are a family and we stick together and love each other no matter what.

His only other option was – murder. Kill his entire family.

So he sat down and wrote a pros and cons list

The pros of welfare …

The cons of welfare – everyone would know. Everyone would make fun of them. He would lose his power and the respect of the community.

Murder on the other hand – everyone wouldn’t possibly lose respect for him then.

What the crap is going on in this guy’s head?

Dr. Steven Simring, one of the psychiatrists, said that John had a “sense of neatness” due to his compulsive personality. He also said that John showed “no evidence of anything that approached genuine remorse. He’s a cold, cold man.”

At sentencing John said, “I feel that because of my mental state at the time, I was unaccountable for what happened. I ask all affected by this for their forgiveness, understanding and prayer.” Basically, it’s not my fault. Thanks Obama.

The judge said, “John Emil List is without remorse and without honor. After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it is now time for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patricia, Frederick and John F. List to rise from the grave.” YOU get 5 life sentences you piece of trash! To be served consecutively. If I could, I would literally his you in the face with this gavel. (of course I’m saying this part)

John issued a statement to the court that said he was sorry for “the tragedy that happened in 1971.” That was it.

Shortly after he was sentenced, John filed an appeal. His reason was that he didn’t know what he was doing due to PTSD that he got from working in the financial department while he was in the military. PAPERS! SO MANY PAPERS!!

By the way, the other reason you can’t convict him is because the letter he left behind was between him and his pastor – pastor/ murderer privilage. This should have been inadmissible as evidence. I mean, what is our legal system coming to when a murderer can’t leave a letter in full view of everyone and police don’t read it as it’s confidential.

The federal appeals court said, REJECTED! Take your ass back to prison and shut up.

In 2002 John did an interview with Connie Chung and he said, “I wish I had never done what I did. I’ve regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since.” So it only took 31 years for him to regret his actions?

On March 21, 2008, when he was 82 years old, he died in prison of pneumonia. The New Jersey Star-Ledger reported news of his death and called him “the Boogeyman of Westfield.”

In the same year, John Walsh from America’s Most Wanted, donated the bust to a forensic science exhibit in the National Museum of Crime and Punishment in D.C. The entire collection was later relocated to Alcatraz East Crime Museum in Pigeon Forge, TN.

In an interview with the residents of Westfield, parents told reporters that kids still don’t walk past the area and no one wants to live on the same street as the house.

And THAT is the case of John List, a selfish narcissistic bastard who loved his image more than he loved his family.

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