My Serial Killer Boyfriend Murdered Our Son – Part 1 – The Interview with Hera McLeod

Tonight’s episode features an interview with Hera McLeod about the Joaquim Rams case

>> Ky: Now part of the Darkcast Network. Welcome to Indie Podcasts with a Dark side. Today’s episode is part one of a two parter of a very shocking and intricate case. Part one is the interview and next week part two will be the case. It’s the interview you’ve been waiting for for months. The interview with Hera McLeod Survivor, the Joaquim Rams serial killer. Right now on Love and Murder. Hey, lambs, Kai here and I have a very special episode for you. You know, I usually do true crime episodes based on research, police reports, etc. Etc. Well, technically, today’s true crime case is coming straight from the source. Let’s give a warm malam welcome to the guest who I’m about to interview, Hara McLeod. Hi Hara, how are you doing? Hi.

>> Hera McLeod: I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.

>> Ky: Thanks for coming. Definitely. So what happened lam, was I saw a blurb of Hera’s story in a, uh, Facebook group and I just, I had to reach out to her. I hope you, I don’t want to say enjoy her story, but I hope you understand her story. And I’m going to actually ask some questions that came from y’all and some questions about, you know, true crime from straight from the Source.

Hera is the host of a podcast celebrating non traditional families

So first of all, Hera is the host of her own podcast and it’s called Seeking Different. Am I right?

>> Hera McLeod: Yeah, it’s Seeking Different. Uh, it is a podcast celebrating non traditional families and also it’s a mom and kid podcast. I do it with my nine year old daughter. And in addition to celebrating non traditional families, we like to really unpack difficult topics that you might want to talk about with your kids from the perspective of a mom and a kid.

>> Ky: So when you’re saying non traditional families, what does that include? What does that mean?

>> Hera McLeod: So we are a single mom by choice family and what that means is that, uh, and you’ll understand this more after you hear a little bit more about my story.

>> Ky: But because of the tragedy that I.

>> Hera McLeod: Experienced with my son and being in family court, when I went to have more kids, I thought to myself, you know, I just want to do this myself. So I went and got a sperm donor for both of my daughters. And so yeah, I’m a mom who chooses to be a single mom. I love it. And I think, you know, part of our podcast is like kind of celebrating that all families look different. So we are a mom and kid family, which is non traditional, but we’ve also done interviews with some of her donor siblings and their families. Uh, some of them have Two moms, some of them have just one mom like us. There’s other families that might have two dads. One dad, maybe someone’s raised by a grandparent, maybe someone’s parents are divorced.

>> Ky: Some.

>> Hera McLeod: So yeah, we just kind of like are set out to make it more approachable and make people realize, or maybe perhaps make kids who have different and non traditional families really realize that at the end of their day, their family might be more normal than they think.

Searching Different podcast features interviews with sperm donors and other interesting topics

>> Ky: And from your podcast, like, can you think off the top of your head? What’s your favorite episode that you recorded?

>> Hera McLeod: Oh, there’s been a lot. Um, I would say one of the more interesting episodes actually was the last one that just aired. It was a two part series where we interviewed a donor, a sperm donor, who discovered that he had 97 biological children.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: It’s shocking. And one of the first things that my daughter asked him was like, wait a second, how did that happen? Because she, um, because we’ve talked a lot about this, that like most sperm banks are really, what they’re supposed to do is limit the families. So after there’s like 10 families, which is still like a pretty big number for a family, uh, after 10 families, they’re supposed to kind of pull him from the market so that there can’t be, you know, hundreds and hundreds of children from the same donor.

>> Ky: Right.

>> Hera McLeod: But, um, what he told us was that his, the sperm bank that he used called Zytex, uh, told him that they were limiting to 40 families, which still is an incredibly shocking number because even if every one of those families had two kids, that’s like, you know, it’s still 80 kids. Right. Um, but he, he said that they lied or were mis, you know, they were dishonest because it ended up being something like 60 something families. Uh, and so they also told him that he would be able to remain anonymous. And that was also not incredibly truthful because when some of the kids turned about 11, one of the moms found him on Instagram, which was an interesting experience for him.

>> Ky: Uh, wow.

>> Hera McLeod: So, yeah, we had a great conversation with him. His name’s Donor Dylan. And I think it was really good for my daughter to also hear from the perspective of somebody who had been a sperm donor since, you know, she’s never met her sperm donor and may or may not meet him in the future. And so it gave her some really interesting perspective.

>> Ky: Wow. And so where can we find that episode and your podcast?

>> Hera McLeod: So you can find our podcast just about on every podcasting platform. I mean, we’re On Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, just search for Seeking Different. We’re also on Instagram at Seeking Different.

>> Ky: Awesome. And I’ll also have that podcast link lamps in the show notes below. So you could easily go listen to that episode and all the other episodes on Seeking Different. I’m definitely going to listen to that episode after we record this. That’s crazy.

>> Hera McLeod: My mind was blown.

>> Ky: That, uh, is crazy.

>> Hera McLeod: It was super interesting.

>> Ky: Wow.

Hera Bristow went on match. com back in 2010

So what I want to do now is we’re going to go ahead and pivot and we’re going to go ahead and get into your case and then I know you have something else that we are going to talk about, so we’ll do that towards the end. So please let me know your story and lams, like I said, stick around to the end because the questions that I have for Hera, uh, and what she also wants to bring to you is very, very interested. Can you tell us about your story? Just start from the beginning and I won’t interrupt you. Take it away.

>> Hera McLeod: I’ll try to give you the, like, elevator pitch version.

>> Ky: Um, essentially. Oh, man.

>> Hera McLeod: So I, this happened at least a decade or so ago. Uh, back in about 2010, I went on match.com, which if any of you who are as old as I am. Back in 2010, it was not sexy or popular to be dating online like it is now.

>> Ky: Now.

>> Hera McLeod: Uh, but, you know, I had just moved back to the United States from serving overseas with the government and, you know, I was pushing 30 and all the societal pressures and, you know, really wanted to settle down and meet someone and have kids. And so, um, I got on match.com I, uh, met a man named Joaquin Rams. Uh, and he seemed very charming and, ah, kind of love bombed me for the first few months. And have you heard the term love bomb before?

>> Ky: I haven’t, but I could kind of figure out what it means. But go ahead and, go ahead and explain it.

>> Hera McLeod: Like, if anyone has ever been involved with somebody who is on the psychopathy or psychopath spectrum or really just like, a lot of narcissists do this too, but somebody who’s just like, you know, just bombing you with affection, right? And it’s like, it’s hard to see through that, especially if you’ve never had it happen to you before.

>> Ky: And it can be really flattering.

>> Hera McLeod: And so this was happening and it was just like very whirlwind. It was like, wow, like, he’s great. And a lot of times people like this kind of just like mirror back to you so, you know, he was intently listening to what I wanted and what I. What I thought about things. And, you know, oh, you want that? I want that.

>> Ky: Right.

>> Hera McLeod: Like, just very, very attuned to how to hook you in. Right, right. And so he pretty much lied about, like, almost everything about him. Uh, and I think, you know, when I tell people, like, the danger of Internet dating is that because it. It’s still somewhat.

>> Ky: I don’t know if you can call.

>> Hera McLeod: It non traditional anymore, but, like, at least at the time and. And probably now too. You know, traditionally you would meet somebody who you had some connection to. Maybe you met them at school, met them at work, or through a friend. So there was like some external way to validate or vet, like, who they were.

>> Ky: Right.

>> Hera McLeod: Or if you lived in a small town, like, maybe you knew the person’s aunt. Right. Um, but with Internet dating, I mean, Joaquin and I never would have met because we didn’t live, like, we lived maybe an hour away from each other. We weren’t in the same circles. We didn’t have the same education. Um, you know, I could go on and on. Like, we were just two different type of people. Um, but I also had had several failed relationships with people who were in my circle. So I was like, you know, I’m gonna step outside my comfort zone and I’m gonna date somebody that I wouldn’t normally date.

>> Ky: Right. Let’s try something new.

>> Hera McLeod: Let’s try something new. Right. Um, and so, you know, he seems like a great guy. Like, he told me he was in the entertainment industry. I was like, cool. I don’t know anything about the entertainment industry, and I’m just glad it’s not my industry. Right. So I was like, okay, this will be fun. Like, interesting stories. Um, and then he also told me that he owned his own, like, contracting contacting business. And so I was like, okay. Uh, you know, on its face, he seems like he was doing pretty well. Like, he drove a Mercedes truck. He lived in a five bedroom house in Bristow, Virginia, and he was also raising his son by himself. And so at the time, I assumed, like, wow, like, somebody who has sole custody of their kid, like, must be pretty squared away. Uh, that was.

>> Ky: Sorry to interrupt. This is. He told you this or you knew this?

>> Hera McLeod: Well, I mean, his son lived with him, and, like, there was no other person in the picture. So, I mean, I. Yeah, I made a lot of assumptions, but when we had spent a lot of time together, like, it was clear that his son was always there. Right.

>> Ky: Understood. Got it.

>> Hera McLeod: There Was really never a moment where he, like, went somewhere else. Um, and so, yeah, so, I mean, he seemed. He seemed like I, you know, any, like, any other person would assume, like, oh, this person’s paying for their house. They’re, you know, gainfully employed. Uh, and at least in the beginning, you know, he was doing stuff like buying $10,000 entertainment centers in, like, a given day. And I was with him when this was happening. I was like, man, that’s a lot of money. And, like, you know, I was gainfully employed and did good for myself, but I was like, I can’t spend that kind of money. I don’t even make that much money in a month, you know.

>> Ky: Right.

>> Hera McLeod: And so, uh, yeah, so it was just. There was nothing, at least initially, that would point to, like, wow, this man is lying. It was just like, okay, well, he’s different than me. Um, in about. I would say, like, six months into the relationship. No, three months into the relationship, he started talking about marriage. And I knew it was, like, a little bit too soon, but I also, you know, I was at the point in my life where I was like, oh, my gosh, finally somebody wants what I want.

>> Ky: Right?

>> Hera McLeod: Like, somebody wants to settle down. Um, didn’t intend on getting married to him at three months, but at least I was like, okay, this is, you know, on a track for, like, a serious relationship. Um, also, like I said, very naive.

About six months into the relationship, I got pregnant

Um, we probably. About six months into the relationship, I got pregnant and we were not married, we were not engaged. And I was also, I would say, at that point, uh, you know, I. I am not. I am not anti abortion, but I also was the type of person that was like, look, I’m old enough, I’m financially responsible enough, and I want kids, so I’m gonna. So I’m gonna have my son. Right. Uh, and at the time, I figured, like, I was gonna be in a partnership with his father. Right. Um, that was right around the time that things started falling apart. Like, I felt like when I got pregnant with Prince, who’s my son, um, it was almost like a mask came down. Um, so, like, the. It’s like the only way I could describe it. It’s like he literally turned into a different person. And, yeah, I’m not gonna be. You know, I’m not gonna sugarcoat it and say there weren’t red flags before. There were, but they were nothing. You know, people like this don’t walk up to you and, like, punch you in the face and say, hey, you wanna have a baby with me? Like, that’s not how it works.

>> Ky: Right, right.

>> Hera McLeod: And so. But at the time that I was pregnant, I was like, you know, I come from a very, um, you know, somewhat traditional Christian background, and you just. You stay with the father of your child. Right. And so at that time, when things start unraveling with him, you know, my first thought was, like, maybe he’s going through some kind of mental health crisis, because he was talking about, you know, his finances falling apart, and he was saying that, like, his career wasn’t going well. And mind you, like, I was not, um. I was. I didn’t have any evidence, like, no shreds of evidence that he was actually a musician, other than the fact that he had a recording studio in his house that he was constantly in. But I, like, never saw him in concert or anything. And so I started. I started getting doubtful about that. But then he started producing people in his life. Like, he had this aunt and uncle that I later learned were not actually related to him that, uh, that said they’d seen him in concert, and, you know, they were bolstering his story. So I was like, man, like, who. Who has people lie for them? Right? And they said they were family. He had, like, attorneys that told me that they were his entertainment attorneys, and, like, they were actual real attorneys who are still practicing today.

>> Ky: Oh, uh, wow.

>> Hera McLeod: Yeah. And so, like, it. You know, it wasn’t like, there was. There was. There were no signs or there were no people bolstering him, but it still was, like. It was weird that I had been with him for now almost a year, and, like, you know, I’d never seen him in concert. I’d never seen any other evidence other than, like, people in his life who were saying that this was true. Right. And so as the. As his mental state deteriorated, I mean, he just became more violent. Like, um, he would pop off about stuff and, like, throw things at me. He started getting really violent with his son, who was living in the house with us.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: And, um, he also had this. He had a weapon, had a gun.

>> Ky: And, like, he. It.

>> Hera McLeod: And it’s crazy because, like, as soon as I became pregnant, like, the gun started showing up everywhere. Like, at one point, I felt like it was like the third. Like, it was like the love triangle between our relationship is, like, he’d always have it, and it was like his form of coercive control for me and his son. It was like, you don’t do what I want. Like, I’m going to threaten you with my weapon. And I’m. And he’d always Used to say, like, oh, I’m allowed to have this. I have a concealment license. Sins. And so it got to the point where I just kind of felt trapped and, and it was scary. I mean, it. And it was also like, the type of situation where his older son was there, and I knew I didn’t have a right to him. And it got to a point where I was like, I can’t leave this kid in this house. But I think it all really came to a head. Prince. Uh, my son was born July 1, 2011. Uh, two weeks later. Joaquin had asked me if he could take my sister to a concert. Now, mind you, my entire family, like, at this point, did not like him because he was doing what typical psychopaths do and, you know, tries to separate you from your family. Uh, and so I use this as an opportunity.

>> Ky: I’m like, oh, he’s extending a fig leaf.

>> Hera McLeod: This’ll be great. They’ll go out and maybe, like, she won’t hate him as much. Um, but the night they returned from the concert, I was home with, um, his older son and my son and him, of course.

>> Ky: And my parents came to get me.

>> Hera McLeod: And they were like, prince, you and Prince need to come with us. Uh, and I was like, what’s going on? Like, here I’m panicking. Like, what. What has happened here? Like, why is everybody going crazy? Um, and that’s when I learned that Joaquin raped my 19 year old sister that night. Uh, and I just, like, it felt like somebody had dumped a bucket of ice water over my head. I was like, you know, it was like, it’s almost like. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie get out, but, like, being in the Sunken Place.

>> Ky: Yeah, yeah.

>> Hera McLeod: Like, I was in the Sunken Place and I just, I just could not imagine some, like. I mean, it was almost like I was seeing him for the first time, you know, and he was evil. And I was like, uh, we have to get out of here. And so I went to follow my parents out of the house.

Joaquin held me at gunpoint on his porch before fleeing to Maryland

His older son wanted to come with us, but of course, if I had taken him, it would have been kidnapping. And Joaquin came after, came after me.

>> Ky: And ended up holding at gunpoint at.

>> Hera McLeod: The door and was like, you know, if you leave, if you try to leave me, I’m just gonna kill you. Like, I killed Sean. And I was like, who the is Sean?

>> Ky: Yeah, right.

>> Hera McLeod: Like, who’s Sean? Um, and so, uh, I, I got away. Like, luckily my dad was there and he also had a weapon, so he was like, you know, you better stand down or this is going to get ugly for all of us.

>> Ky: I called, I naively called the police.

>> Hera McLeod: And at that point I thought like, oh, you know, like if you’re ever in danger, like perhaps getting held at gunpoint at, you know, on your porch, um, call the police. Because I had, you know, literally just left this house with my 2 week old son still bleeding from childbirth, and all of our stuff was still in the house. I was like, you know, I have to go in and get my work computer. I can’t just let Joaquin have all this stuff. And so I felt like I had.

>> Ky: To call the police.

>> Hera McLeod: And when the police arrived, as soon as they spoke to him, he started name dropping police officers that he knew that he was friends with. And like all of a sudden the police officer’s demeanor changed and I was like, what the hell is going on here? And so they called us into the station. You know, now I know, like, in hindsight I should have just left and, you know, just gone about my business. Like after I got my stuff, I should have just left. I should have been like, I’m not giving any statements, I’m just going home. Right?

>> Ky: But of course at that time I.

>> Hera McLeod: Was like, you know, there’s been a rape.

>> Ky: Like, we have to, we have to.

>> Hera McLeod: Do something about this. Um, and I, I went and I cooperated and I talked to the police. Um, you know, I don’t think we got home until like 6am the next morning. Like, uh, and the very next day my sister and I found out that.

>> Ky: The police were not going to charge him for rape.

>> Hera McLeod: And instead they were going to charge us for and, and obstruction of justice because we said that we had lied about the whole thing.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: I was gobsmacked. Like, I was like, how on earth does this happen? Like, I could not, I could not even believe it. So this all happened in the state of Virginia and my parents lived in Maryland. And so after, after that incident, obviously, you know, I wasn’t going back to Joaquin’s house. So Prince and I went to my parents house in Maryland. Um, and I filed for full legal and physical custody of my son that same week. Like a couple days later. Um, I didn’t hear for what from Joaquin for months. Uh, and so, you know, naively I was like, oh, like maybe, maybe we’re good.

>> Ky: Like maybe he just went away.

>> Hera McLeod: Uh, but I also, in preparation for a potential custody fight, you know, I.

>> Ky: Thought to myself, like, I need to.

>> Hera McLeod: Figure out who this person was that I was with because the person that I fell in love with was obviously not the same person that he became. Or maybe that was what he was the whole time. So I hired a private investigator, and, uh, I guess about a month later.

>> Ky: He came back with a report.

>> Hera McLeod: And I remember driving, and he was like, hera, are you sitting down? And I was like, no, I’m driving. And he’s like, I think you’re going to want to pull over for this. Uh, and what he proceeded to tell me was that Joaquin’s name was actually not Joaquin.

>> Ky: Uh, cliffhanger.

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He changed his name to his son’s name six months before mom was killed

And now back to the show.

>> Hera McLeod: His original name was John Anthony Ramirez. And, uh, he had told me he was 26, but he was actually, like, 33. He had forged a birth certificate of some sort in the state of Virginia, and, like, was able to legally change his name and his date of birth. And the crazier part is that he changed his name to his son’s name six months before his son’s mom was shot in the head. Uh, after she was killed. He claimed that the death benefits, like her life insurance policies were for him. He was like, oh, look, it says Joaquin Rams, when in fact, they were for her son.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: Yeah. She was also shot on the eve of their custody hearing, which, you know, isn’t a coincidence. He found her, uh, his. His, um, When I looked at the police file, like, it was. It was insane that they did not arrest him that night. What they told me was that he bled all over the crime scene, and so he basically tampered the crime scene. Uh, he agreed to take a polygraph, after which he failed multiple times on the polygraph, but you can’t use that in criminal court. So it was not admissible as evidence. But basically, the police were like, we knew he did it. He, so he had custody of his older son, but it was because the mom was dead.

>> Ky: Uh, but if they knew he murdered the mom, I, I, I don’t know.

>> Hera McLeod: The prosecutor to take the case. And they kept saying they didn’t have enough evidence, uh, which is bananas because I’ve spoken to the police, um, officer who was on the scene, they, she was ready to arrest him that day, but the prosecutors wouldn’t go forward the case, and even her own boss wouldn’t support her. Uh, and so it’s, it’s pretty much no, it’s nuts.

>> Ky: Were they among the officers that he knew, perhaps?

>> Hera McLeod: Same departments, you know, all the same little incestuous, you know, neighborhoods out in the state of Virginia. Um, his son also, um, reported him for child abuse multiple times. And, you know, he never got in trouble. Like, at one point, he had physical marks all over him. And CPS had a finding of physical abuse, but it just, it just went away. Like, everything that had to do with him went away. Um, a few years after Sean was murdered, his own mother died in his home, uh, with a plastic bag laying over her head. And when police arrived, there was a suicide note. The suicide note was in the handwriting of his then girlfriend, not in the woman’s handwriting.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: Joaquin had scratches all over his face. Now, I know this because I’ve read the police reports.

>> Ky: I’ve read the, um, I got my.

>> Hera McLeod: Hands on the report, the coroner’s report. It was crazy. I’m like, you can’t commit suicide by pressing a bag to your face. You would pass out, and then the bag would fall out, fall off, start breathing. Like, there is no physical way to do this. But the police got a hold of it and they rolled it a suicide. And he had her cremated before the rest of her family was even notified.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Hera McLeod: His family to this day thinks that he killed her because just like the first murder, he convinced her to put all of her life insurance policies in his name. And then she turned up dead.

>> Ky: So so far, by my count, he’s gotten away with two murders.

>> Hera McLeod: Yep. This is number two. So, you know, I’m hearing this, I’m reading this in this report. And this PI was a homie. Like, he was, like, bugging cars. He was digging through trash. He was talking to neighbors. He found um, his older son’s grandmother.

>> Ky: That, you know, the mom of the woman who had died.

>> Hera McLeod: He found, um, Joaquin’s family members, the ones that had all said that they.

>> Ky: Didn’T believe it was a suicide.

>> Hera McLeod: He found former girlfriends, he found former business partners who had reported that he had physically assaulted them, and they couldn’t get the police to actually charge him for physical assault. Uh, they had reported that he had stolen money from them. Like, it was astonishing how much shit this man got away with in the state of Virginia, and nobody did anything about it.

>> Ky: How? I’m just. How.

>> Ky: I. I mean, I have lots of theories. I have not been able to prove any of my theories, but, I mean, I think that he was. I think he was involved in some kind of trafficking ring and that he had some kind of. He had something on these police officers. It just. There’s no other explanation. So, you know, with all of this evidence, I marched right into the DA’s office, and I’m like, hey, sir, like, what are we doing here? Because I’m like, even if you refuse to believe that he killed these two other people, even though you and I both know he did, right? Um, at the very least, I can prove with these documents that he obtained a concealment license with a false identity because he forged the date of birth. Like, he changed the date of birth to get these records, which is a crime. And they were like, well, that’s not really enough. And, like, we can’t keep, you know, we can’t just, like, go after him for that.

>> Hera McLeod: And I’m like, why not?

>> Ky: And the prosecutor at the time said, uh, that she was not going to speed up her case, her criminal case, because. Or to. To influence my custody case. And I’m like, this isn’t even. This isn’t even to, like, you know, do me a favor. This is to save my kid, right? So, yeah, after about three months or so, we still hadn’t heard from him. Uh, and then he responded to my custody case, asking for full custody. Um, we fought in court for about a year after that. I think the whole case cost me about $150,000 in the year that we were in court.

>> Ky: Oh, my God.

>> Ky: At first, he was given supervised visitation, uh, pending a psychological evaluation, but the court said to him that he could choose his psychological evaluator. So he picked a woman who was not actually licensed to test adults in the state of Virginia, which I did not find out about, actually, until afterwards.

>> Ky: Um, and the court should have found. They should have done their due diligence.

>> Ky: Oh, yeah, no, they didn’t check. They don’t care. They checked the boxes.

All of the evidence against Joaquin was in the state of Virginia

Right?

>> Ky: Yeah.

>> Ky: Um, so the judge, um, the judge actually told me in open court that my son would have to come back to me with cigarette burns on his back in order for it to be considered a child in need of action case.

>> Ky: Are you kidding me?

>> Ky: Yeah. And I think that one of the most frustrating things was that all of the evidence. All of the evidence that was in the court or in Child Protective Services against Joaquin was in the state of Virginia. And states don’t actually share with each other. And so the only person who could have brought the Child Protective Services, like, his son, had a. Had a restraining order against him for a period of time. Um, but the only person who could have brought that evidence in would. Would have been Joaquin himself. And of course, like, he’s not going to do that.

>> Ky: He’s not going to do that. How old is his son who got a restraining order?

>> Ky: Um, he got a restraining order when he was 10.

>> Ky: Wow.

>> Ky: Because he beat the. He beat the crap out of him. Uh, but the crazy thing is CPS put the kid back in the house. Yeah, they gave him a restraining order, but then put him back in the house. And Joaquin proceeded to terrorize this child for this month and be like, you better recant your story.

>> Ky: This I crazy.

>> Ky: So there was.

>> Ky: I can’t even.

>> Ky: There was evidence. We just couldn’t actually get it into the court. Um, I mean, I did have a police officer from the state of Virginia come in, and she was like, yeah, he’s the sole suspect in this murder. Um, but the judge was like, yeah, that’s not. You know, he hasn’t been convicted. And, um, so. So they gave him unsupervised visitation. And on the fourth unsupervised visitation, he killed him. And about two weeks after that, I learned that when Prince was about three months old, right before he responded to my custody case, he had taken out over $500,000 in life insurance, death and benefits on him. And he told the insurance companies that I was deceased, and so they didn’t bother to check.

>> Ky: So people are just money bags to him. That’s all he sees.

>> Ky: Oh, totally. Like. But I mean, the thing that’s crazy about it is, you know, I’m, um. I’m a. I’m about a decade removed from this.

>> Hera McLeod: Right.

>> Ky: And I’ve been thinking a lot about the situation, and, you know, people are like, oh, you must, you know, must feel like justice has been served, because, like, in 2017, he was finally convicted of capital murder and, like, kids never getting out. But I’m like, you know, we all.

>> Hera McLeod: Know he’s crazy, right?

>> Ky: Um, the thing that makes me feel like justice really hasn’t been served is think about all of, like, I should never have met this man.

>> Hera McLeod: Right.

>> Ky: He should have been in prison, like, 10 times over a long time ago I ever met him.

>> Ky: Exactly.

>> Ky: And so, you know, I blame the police officers who refuse to do anything. Um, I blame Child Protective Services, who. Who basically just put this poor child back in the house to let him continue being abused. Um, you know, there was no paper trail. Like, you at the time, like, Google existed, but he had no paper trail. Like, with all this stuff happening, I literally had to hire a PI and pay for someone to knock down doors, you know?

>> Ky: Yeah.

>> Ky: Um, to find the data. And if any of these. And if any of these people had done their job, you know, um, my son would still be here, or maybe my son never would have been born. And as much as I love Prince and I would have given anything to raise him, if I’m honest, he should never have been here.

>> Ky: I understand where you’re coming from. Definitely. Wow.

Judge in Maryland stepped down after son’s murder citing personal and professional reasons

So I just want to know, when CPS told you that he has unsupervised visitation, when you first heard that, how did you feel?

>> Ky: Um, so it wasn’t the judge. I mean, it wasn’t super. It wasn’t cps. It was the judge in Maryland. His name’s Judge Michael Algeo. He thankfully stepped down after my son’s murder, um, citing personal and professional reasons. Yeah, I’ll imagine. Um, I also filed a complaint against him, which hopefully expedited that process. But, yeah, I mean, I felt hopeless. I mean, it was like, literally knowing that you were sending your child across a minefield, and you just had to pray that he wasn’t going to hit the mine that day. Um, I had been talking to organizations and other attorneys just to try to see if I could appeal. Um, but I think the biggest issue is, I mean, there wasn’t any evidence in Maryland, and the evidence that existed in Virginia, I didn’t have access to. None, uh, of it was admissible in court. I mean, I tried to get as much into court as possible, and I did have some really great witnesses. Like, you know, ex girlfriend came. Um, his, you know, older son’s grandmother was there. But the judge really wouldn’t hear any of it, you know, because I think part of the problem was that in family court, there’s just. There’s so many misunderstandings and so many Judges don’t want to be there. And this particular judge was, um, a professor at American University in criminal law. And so I think in his mind, he was like, well, you know, he hasn’t been convicted, but, you know, anybody who knows the law well enough should be able to say, well, criminal court has a different threshold for, um, you know, than. Than civil court, and family court is civil court. So he didn’t need to prove without a reasonable doubt or beyond a reasonable doubt that Joaquin had killed those two people. He just needed to believe that it happened and that he was abusive and that abuse was likely to occur again, which I think we had met that threshold.

>> Ky: Right. I mean, how hard is it for you to at least just take this step of supervised visitation?

>> Ky: And that’s the thing. I mean, it’s. I think part of the problem is that in our country, we care more about the rights of parents than the right. The rights of children. Um, you know, I thought a lot.

>> Hera McLeod: About, like, why that is.

>> Ky: And I think part of it is, you know, parents make the money, parents are the voters. And I say all the time, like, I feel like it’s an extreme privilege to be a parent. I don’t think it’s a right. I think the right that’s in the situation is that the child has a right to safety. And so when two parents come into family court, I mean, if there. We just as a society have to realize that there are going to be parents that just aren’t fit to be parents. And should they still have a right to be parent? Like, no, I don’t think so. When their right, you know, when they’re. When their right to be a parent is directly harmful to a child, like, the kid should matter more.

>> Ky: Yes, I completely agree. And in a lot of my episodes that I do involving children and kind of like your scenario where, you know, there’s been red flags up and down, painted up and down the street, and nothing’s happening until something does happen, but by that time, it’s too late. I think these laws need to be changed. I don’t know to what. And I don’t know how to get people to hear this, but something needs to happen. Like, this is ridiculous.

>> Ky: I mean, there’s a lot of organizations out there, um, a lot of them that I work with. I was actually just on Capitol Hill yesterday, testifying in a congressional briefing about child safety. And, um, what I was talking about, as you know, my piece on the panel was really that right now there’s no federal incentive. I mean, the government really doesn’t have a lot of control when it comes to mandating what the states do with things like family court. But what they can do is they can provide incentives for states to share with each other. And I think what we have to realize is that we don’t live in an isolated society. Right? Like, there’s a lot of people who live in one state, work in another, you know, kids who cross state lines to go visit another parent. And, you know, unless we were in an isolated situation where you could have the evidence within your state, you need the states to cooperate with each other. Uh, I also think that the federal government should be having some oversight on CPS organizations when it comes to how long they have to retain the data. Because right now, I mean, imagine a child who’s sexually abused. There should be no statute of limitation on when that child could accuse the perpetrator. But if the original CPS report is gone, how much harder does it make that? Right? And there’s no. There’s nothing saying how long they have to keep these records.

>> Ky: I mean, and that’s just the bare minimum. Just making sure that states share records, that’s a bare minimum in this day and age. Like, are you kidding me?

>> Ky: It’s like it’s 20, 23. And so, you know, all of the money that our government spends on loads of stuff that is, like, silly and ridiculous. All I’m asking is, like, find a piece of software and incentivize these states that you’re going to pay for the onboarding of the software and their use of this software as long as they share their data. Like, to me, that’s not hard. I mean, but the more in the last decade, the more I learn about the crazy things happening to kids in this country, it makes me sick. I just spoke to a woman yesterday, 24 years old. Her name is Ali Toyos. She, uh, is currently a student at nyu, but she testified about a time when the courts forced her and her sister into something called a reunification camp, which was basically like a dirty motel. And for months and months, they were forced to, um, be in these horrible circumstances and away from their mom. And the. And the camp people were basically like, you can’t leave until you say that. That your dad. That you lied about your dad. Their dad was sexually abusing them.

>> Ky: Oh.

>> Ky: And basically it was like psychological torture.

>> Hera McLeod: And the.

>> Ky: And the court ordered this.

>> Ky: What?

>> Hera McLeod: Uh.

>> Ky: Oh, my God. You’re. You’re. You’re telling me stuff I didn’t even know about.

>> Ky: No, it’s crazy. Like, it is nuts and so part of the reason we were on Capitol Hill yesterday and meeting with, we uh, met with the, um, director of the Office of Violence Against Women. Uh, and we are talking about these, in these camps and it’s like they are literally kidnapping children and terror, like psychologically terrorizing them. There’s no oversight to these places because they call themselves psychoeducational facilities. Uh, so they don’t even have to have like licensed therapists.

What’s the end game to this though? That’s what I’m wondering

>> Ky: What’s the end game to this though? That’s what I’m not getting.

>> Ky: To send children back to abusers. And the thing that’s really horrible is that there’s so much money in this. Like, think about how on my case, $150,000 to attorneys, they make out like fat rats.

>> Ky: Got you that. That’s what I was trying to figure out. What’s the end game? Money. That’s what it is.

>> Ky: Um, and this reunification camp that this poor girl had to go to, she said that it cost 40 grand and the dad sued the mom, and the mom who had been the survivor of domestic violence ended up having to pay for this camp where her kids were psychologically tortured.

>> Ky: Wow. Oh my God.

>> Ky: Yeah, it’s nuts. Like, it’s, it’s nuts.

>> Ky: You’re literally bringing, Let me tell you, uh, just this one little thing. I had a friend, my, one of my best friends in high school. Throughout all of high school, her only dream was to become a lawyer. She went to college, she did it, she became a lawyer. She started trying to advocate for children. So.

>> Ky: Mhm.

>> Ky: She was a lawyer and she quit. She said she couldn’t do it because she would be fighting for children’s rights and the court would just put the children back with the abusive parents. And then she’s like to see either the father or the mother’s face when they found out they won. She, mhm. Said she couldn’t do it. She quit. Her lifelong dream and she quit.

>> Ky: I mean, I get it. Like, it’s hard. I mean, literally the only reason that I can still even advocate for this is because I use, uh, a sperm donor. I mean, like I said at the beginning of the episode, like, I knew that, you know, I, I felt in my bones that I was put on this earth to end this or at least be part of the change that I wanted to see in the world. And I’m like, I can’t do this if I have to const. Constantly be anxious about my kids end up in that situation. And the only way I could think of to make that not happen is to never co parent.

>> Ky: So you feel like. And either way, you answer, I completely understand. Like, seriously. So you feel like you would never be able to trust a guy around you or your children again?

>> Ky: Uh, I’m not a very binary person when it comes to things like this, so I won’t say never, but I will say that, you know, when I was with Joaquin, like, I had this. I had all these boxes I felt like I had to check off, right? And I was like, all about the respectability politics of, like, okay, first you’re married, then you have the 2.5 babies, and, like, the white picket fence. And I just grew up and have a lot of ptsd. And so it’s not that I couldn’t do it, per se. It’s just, you know, and I still. I still do hope one day to meet my life partner and, you know, find my person. It’s not that. It’s just that, uh, anybody who really, truly loves me and hears me will understand that I need to be in the type of relationship where I choose. Like, we both choose to be there every day, and there’s not, like, this legal binding hanging over our heads.

>> Ky: Understood. Understood.

>> Ky: And so it’s not to say I wouldn’t. It’s just that, like, it would really. I can’t imagine it at this point in my life. Right. And when it comes to my children, I mean, I was in a pretty serious relationship right before my. Right before I started trying for my second. And I remember we were standing at. We’re standing somewhere, and he’s like, when we get married, like, you’re gonna take my last name, right? And I was like, no. Um, and he was offended. And I’m like, first of all, I’m an author, and I’m a. I’m like, a public person at this point. And, like, I have a name that’s, like, you know, part of my brand. Um, and also my daughter has my last name, so I’m not taking yours. And he was like, well, I just assumed I would adopt her. And I’m like, well, that’s a weird assumption, knowing who I am. Right? Um, and I think for me. I feel like for me to ever get to the point where anybody would even come close to adopting my kids, my kids would have to come to me with, like, a briefing and, you.

>> Ky: Know, and PowerPoint slides.

>> Ky: PowerPoint slides. But I mean, also, like, I just feel very strongly that, like, they would have to choose the person.

>> Hera McLeod: Right.

>> Ky: Right. Yeah. Wow.

>> Ky: And they get to. Because we have that freedom in our family. Like, I can choose who is around my kids and if they’re a positive and healthy person, then they’ll get to be around my kids and they’ll get to be around me. But I don’t want to have to feel like somebody. I mean, there’s just, I don’t know, like, maybe I, I’m just super jaded. But I think in 2023, a woman no longer needs a man to open a bank account. And I, you know, I, I want companionship, but I certainly don’t feel like I need it legally.

>> Ky: Right. And I mean, coming from your background, I could totally. Like you said in the beginning of the show.

>> Ky: Mhm.

>> Ky: You’ll understand where I’m coming from. I totally understand where you’re coming from.

>> Ky: I’m just, I, I don’t know, like, I hate feeling like there’s, I mean, I am a very skeptical, non trusting person because I do have a lot of trauma. I try to be a little bit balanced and I’ve definitely gone through a lot of therapy. Right. Um, but I still know myself well enough to just know that like, I think for me, like, I would feel safe with somebody who understood.

How did you find strength to go through this difficult time and support your girls

>> Ky: And you just actually mentioned therapy and that was kind of my next question. How did you find a strength just to go through this difficult time and support your girls?

>> Ky: Mhm. Oh, uh, man, I mean, I wish I could say that I was like, totally put together the whole time. Like I, I think like about a month or so after he died, it was just like, I don’t even remember half that time.

>> Ky: Um, I can’t even blame you.

>> Ky: I do remember feeling a lot of rage. And I think sometimes rage was what got me out of bed. Which is, you know, something I’m thankful for to a degree. Um, but I also remember, I remember standing over the casket, uh, at the wake and I remember I thought to myself, I’m, um, like, okay, I have two choices. I could either get in here with him, which I did consider, um, or I could keep living. And I realized like, if I get in there with him, he’s going to be dead for sure. Gone. Right. Because right now like, I’m all he has left. And so I made him a promise. And I was like, prince, I wish this, like, I wish this had never happened. I wish you had not had, ah, to be the kid. Um, and I know that you weren’t the first, but I want you to be the last. And so I, I first, like, you know, I made it a mission to get this in prison. Like, it took Them three months to.

>> Ky: Arrest him, and that’s what I was gonna ask. Wow. Three months.

>> Ky: It took them a month to get his older son out of the house.

>> Ky: Oh. Oh. What?

>> Ky: I know. It was crazy. I think they ended up using, like, dental records or something. Ridiculous. I was like, you have got to get that kid out of there.

>> Ky: Oh, my God. Where. Where is he now? Do you. Do you know?

>> Ky: He is doing well. He was, um. He went to the Air Force. His, um. He went to live with his grandma after it happened.

>> Ky: Okay.

>> Ky: Um, and they’re great. Like, you know, I. You know, I think anybody coming from that situation would have a lot of trauma, and I’m sure he certainly has his fair share of trauma. Uh, he and I still talk. He actually just me, like, five minutes ago.

>> Ky: Uh, yeah, I was going to ask that.

>> Ky: Yeah. I. I tell him every once in a while that he was my first child. Um, because in many ways, you know, I didn’t have any kids when I met him, and he didn’t have a mom. And so even though we only lived together for a year, I think there’s definitely something like, uh, perhaps eerily strange or terrifying or also bonding that, like, of all the people that lived with Joaquin in his adult life were the only two that has survived it.

>> Ky: Yeah. Wow.

>> Ky: So, yeah.

What do you think people misunderstand most about domestic violence survivors

>> Ky: Um, another question I have for you is, what do people misunderstand most? You feel, in your. In your opinion about people who have gone through, like, this type of tragedy?

>> Ky: I think that there is a natural protective mechanism to be like, oh, there must be something wrong with her, because this would never happen to me.

>> Hera McLeod: Right.

>> Ky: And I understand, because I was that person. Right. Um, I thought I was smart. I thought I was savvy. Um, I think that. I think that it’s scary to realize that it could happen to anyone, which is why people kind of hold that belief, because it’s, like, protective. Um, and, yeah, I think. I think the misunderstanding really is that people just, you know, they hear these crazy stories, and they automatically jump to the conclusion that this could never happen to them, which, um, is, you know, I think, a naive misunderstanding that’s also fairly dangerous. Like, for me as a mom, um, of two little girls, you know, I. I try to be balanced. I don’t want them to, like, be fearful through life, but I also want them to understand that they have to go into relationship with their eyes wide open and that they also have to be conscious of what society is telling them, because I think that was, like, one of the biggest. I think that was one of the Biggest challenges for me at that age, because I didn’t, you know, I had grown up in a pretty sheltered community full of people who had, you know, similar moral compasses. And, um, you know, I also trusted the police and thought that they would be protective. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I just want my girls to know that, like, you don’t have to get married. You don’t have to get married on a timeline. You don’t have to have babies on a timeline. Like, you know what? Like, this is your life. Like, find. Find healthy people to surround yourself with. And don’t ever feel like you are trapped because of what society tells you you should do at some point.

>> Ky: That is very good advice. And do you. Do you talk to. Talk to your daughters about your son? Do they know or. They’re too young right now.

>> Ky: No. I mean, so they’re 4 and 10. Um, Prince is part of our family, you know, so, um, we definitely, you know, I definitely think my daughters probably have some generational trauma that they won’t be able to escape from. Um, and we have to talk about it, right? Like, I don’t, you know, I don’t lie to my kids. I’m very. I think sometimes people don’t give kids enough credit. I mean, I certainly don’t, like, you know, try to overwhelm them with all of the evils of the world. But for me, I mean, I’ve been telling them that I’m a single mom by choice, and then I chose a donor from, like, day one, you know, and I wanted them to know why.

>> Ky: And I appreciate people who are open with their children and don’t lie to their children. That’s totally how I am with my daughter. Um, you know, you have to understand that children are people. They may be little, but they’re people. And.

>> Ky: And you feel it, you know?

>> Ky: Yeah. With your past experiences, whether good or bad, they’re going to learn from it. So I appreciate that this is the path you chose. Um, what advice would you offer to others who might be going through, like, similar grief or dealing with. I want to call it complicated family dynamics, but I more mean like the house of Joaquin.

>> Ky: Yeah. I mean, it’s hard. Like, I think another misunderstanding is people are like, why didn’t you leave?

>> Ky: Right.

>> Ky: And I’m like, you know, I will never ask a survivor of domestic violence why she didn’t leave, because it is the most obnoxious question someone can ask. Um, because I guess it’s hard, right? Because I think everybody’s situation is different. But I would probably say that women need to make sure that they have a strong community of people around who are always going to be honest with them. Uh, and if in the moment that they feel afraid or scared, you know, try to leverage your community, uh, and don’t let the person you’re with isolate you from them to the point where you have nobody, which a lot of these abusers try to do. Um, and I also would say, I mean, look, some people I have spoken to over the past decade because I speak to a lot of survivors and people who are, you know, in these situations still. And one of my, one of the things I tell them frequently is don’t use your attorney as your therapist because it’s expensive and they’re not going to help you. Uh, and you need to find a good therapist. You need to find somebody who understands personality disorders, who understands complex pts, ttsd, even if they’ve just worked with war vets, because it is, you know, eerily similar in many ways. Um, and not going to therapy if you’ve been through an extreme trauma like this is like breaking your leg and refusing to cast it and then wondering why you can’t walk straight five years later. Uh, so, yeah, it’s just, it’s like necessary, you know, and sometimes a therapist can also kind of help you work through how to leave if it feels like you’re trapped.

How is your sister doing after losing Prince

>> Ky: Um, I have two, like a two fold question. First of all, before I forget, I wanted to know, how is your sister doing?

>> Ky: Um, she’s doing amazing. Uh, one of the things, One of the biggest miscalculations that Joaquin made was I think he thought that I would be on his side and he miscalculated that. My sister is my best friend and she is probably, she’s probably the person on the planet that I trust the most. Um, and so there was never a moment when, like, you know, there’s just never a moment I wouldn’t have chosen her.

>> Ky: Um, yes.

>> Ky: And that was something that, you know, I think he thought, like, oh, this will be the thing that finally, like, gets her away from her family. Um, and it didn’t work. It backfired on him. But she’s doing fantastic. She is in law school right now. Um, also one of the smartest people I know, and she is going to make an amazing attorney someday and hopefully in some way work to take the system down.

>> Ky: I’m happy to hear that she’s doing that. This, this whole story is hurting my heart. I’m so happy to hear that she’s doing good. And the Second part of my question was, when you think about Prince now, like, how do you feel? Is it. Is it more hope? And you feel you. You think about the. The good times, or how do you feel when you think about Prince today?

>> Ky: Oh, man. Um, I was just telling another survivor yesterday who was, like, a little bit, like, less removed from her situation than me. Uh, it doesn’t, like the. The grief you feel and the pain you feel doesn’t get smaller. I think we just grow. It’s like it stays the same size, but we grow, and so it feels different. Um, I think that in many ways, you know, the grief isn’t necessarily at the forefront of my mind, like, at every given second of every given day. Uh, but I think where it shows up is moments when I am experiencing joy with my daughters. Um, and it is bittersweet because I know my son will never get to experience these moments.

>> Ky: Wow. Wow, that’s. That’s heavy.

Your upcoming book is called Defying Silence. What motivated you to write it

Um, my last question is going to be, how do you feel about true crime podcasts and podcasters? But before that question, let me ask you about your upcoming book. What can you tell us about it? Like, what motivated you to write it?

>> Ky: Yeah, and this book has been a labor of love for a decade. Um, and I won’t say I’ve written it. Like, I haven’t been revising it for a decade, but I kind of had to put it down. Um, I started writing it probably a year or two after Prince died, and I just think I was too close to it. Um, and there are parts of the story that, as I was writing it, I’m like, gosh, people are not going to believe. It’s hard to go back to how I was feeling at that time, when I know what I know now. I have all this guilty knowledge. And so I just had a really hard time at the beginning just getting the separation from it. But, um, uh, the book is called Defying Silence, and it is hopefully going to come out by the end of this year. That’s my goal. Um, and, yeah, I think, uh, really, it’s the book that I’m hoping will help people understand. Uh, and the way that I describe it, pretty much like, if I could sum it up, it’s the story of how I survived an abusive relationship with a serial killer, how I uncovered systemic incompetence and corruption and forced justice. And this is a story of a little boy named Prince who finally put a serial killer behind bars.

>> Ky: Dude, I. I didn’t even think about that. You’re absolutely freaking right. He was a serial Killer.

>> Ky: He was. Yeah.

>> Ky: Oh, my God.

>> Ky: And I’m really hoping, like, I mean, to me, like, Prince represents all kids, you know? Um, and I’m really hoping that, like, my story can be the inspiration that someone may need to speak up and, um, or like the virtual embrace to comfort them when they’re lonely in silence.

>> Ky: Right, right. And where would we be able to purchase that book when it drops? Where is it drop into first?

>> Ky: So, I mean, hopefully you’ll be able to find it, you know, just about anywhere. Like Amazon, um, you know, Barnes and Noble. It’ll, uh, definitely be available on Amazon. I can say that for sure. Uh, but yeah, I’m hoping it’ll be like the Christmas, uh, the Christmas release. Christmastime release, or sooner, if I can make that happen. Um, but yeah, one of the reasons I wrote it is like, I just, you know, I have so many ideas and I also feel like as I’ve been advocating for change in the last decade, I look at my story and I’m like, they’re just so. It was like the perfect storm, you know, And I joke with people sometimes. I’m like, yeah, my life has been like a bad Lifetime movie. Um, but I think the thing that makes the story interesting, at least from the perspective of, like, advocacy and policy change, is that different parts of my story hit on so many different problems in the system. It was almost like Prince came with a mission and he was like, let me show you this, Let me show you this. Let me show you this.

>> Ky: Oh, uh, man. And this book is called Defy and Silence. When it drops, you definitely need to reach out to me with like, hey, the book is out, or it’s coming out in a week, or, I know my lambs will want to read this, and I want to read it this. Oh, my God. And I told you before we started recording that I might cry. Uh, I’m really trying not to. Oh, no.

>> Ky: I was also just talking about this with somebody the other day.

>> Hera McLeod: I was like, you know, it’s.

>> Ky: It’s sometimes weird. Like, I’ll, you know, I was in this, um. I was in this meeting with a congressional staffer the other day, and she’s crying because she had, like, a 17 month old baby. And like, you know, I’m telling her, like, the elevator pitch of my story and she’s just crying and. And it, like, it’s always, um, it’s always like, slightly strange for me because, like, I feel awkward because I’ve told the story so many times and, like, I’ve lived this for the Past decade. And I feel weird because I’m like, now. I’m like. The person standing across from me is like, they’re hearing this for the first time, and it’s shocking, you know, and upset. Um, and they’re like, why aren’t you crying? And I’m like, I don’t know.

>> Ky: Yeah, I mean, you’ve dealt with it for so long. Like you said, you’ve. You’ve said it. You’re probably. And correct me if I’m wrong, when you probably talk about this, by now, it’s, like, on autopilot. So it’s not like you’re really, really in your feelings, but you’re retelling a story.

>> Ky: I’ve talked about it on documentaries. Um, there was a discovery plus show called Citizen PI that the fifth episode is actually my episode. Um, it was an episode about people who investigate cold cases. And I think my episode was the only one that, like, a victim investigated her own case.

>> Ky: But that’s strength. That’s strength.

>> Ky: But I just felt like I had to. Like, I felt like I had no other choice.

>> Ky: I mean, nobody else obviously was.

>> Ky: Think about it. Like, it was crazy. I mean, I was a mad woman. I remember right after Prince died, like, a month later, and the police in Virginia didn’t even, um. They didn’t even announce his death. Like, you know how you’ll hear about it usually in the news, like, oh, you know, toddler dies in home or whatever. Nothing. No one. And, um, I remember I called a reporter at the Washington Post and I told her my story, and she admitted later, she was like, I didn’t believe you. She’s like, I would. I had to look it up because I couldn’t believe that they didn’t even say anything. And she spent a whole day on Thanksgiving of that year listening to the recordings of our custody case. And she called me afterwards, and she was like, tara, this is crazy. Uh, and she wrote the first report about it in November of 2012. Uh, and it blew the case apart in the media. Like, it went viral that day.

>> Ky: Wow. And psych.

>> Ky: Yeah, the police were mad at me. They were like, oh, we’re mad. Like, they didn’t want me speaking to the media, but I’m like, how else am I going to get you guys to do anything, right? I mean, I had to shame them.

Harris’ podcast is called Seeking different and her upcoming book is Defiant Silence

I was like, what’s. Why. Why aren’t you arresting him? You’ve got a serial killer out there. Clearly. Um, when I found out about the insurance policies, they didn’t want me to say anything. To the media. They were afraid it was going to get out. And the only reason they didn’t want me to say anything is because they knew that the public is going to be like, what the hell?

>> Ky: Exactly. Wow. So Harris podcast is called Seeking different and her upcoming book is called Defiant Silence. And when it’s coming out, we’ll let you know. We’ll definitely send you a link of where to buy it and go and listen to her podcast Seeking Different.

How do you feel about true crime podcasts and podcasters

Now, my last question to you is, as someone who’s dealt with basically the subject of my podcast.

>> Ky: Mhm.

>> Ky: Relationships that turn to murder, how do you feel about true crime podcasts and podcasters?

>> Ky: So, I mean, I’m a podcaster myself, so I, you know, I love podcasts. I love consuming podcasts. Um, I will be completely honest. I do not watch horror films. I cannot watch the Lifetime movies anymore about the crime. I typically don’t watch true crime shows.

>> Hera McLeod: I think I watched the one.

>> Ky: M. Sorry, Um, I watched the one that I was on, like, because I felt like I needed to review it and make sure it was okay. Um, but yeah, I don’t. I try to limit that because I think it’s scary.

>> Ky: No, I could totally understand where you’re coming from. But even though you don’t consume it, which I didn’t even assume that you did, my question is, how do you feel about, like, people like me who, who retell cases about. I mean, I can see how it.

>> Ky: Would be interesting to people. I mean, I think there’s a fine line between like, informative, uh, for perhaps the sake of policy change and like, trauma porn, which, um, I think sometimes, you know, I even say in like, the, the, the preface of my book, I’m like, I’m not writing this for trauma porn. I’m writing this because I want people to understand how this happened and so that, you know, so that I can, I can help it not happen to people, to other people, you know?

>> Ky: Exactly. And literally that’s why I do my podcast. I don’t do it. And I didn’t even know the words trauma porn. I don’t do it for people to, you know, find this as entertainment. I literally do it to get like, if I did your case, I would have done it into perspective of what the frick is wrong with these police. Like, these police in your case.

>> Ky: That’s the thing that I wish. I mean, I can only hope that someday we will find out what. What the hell happened. And I am certainly going to do the best I can in my book to make Sure. I expose these people so that people know what they did, because after he was convicted, it’s like they all, uh, scurried back to their little rat hole, you know, and no one ever heard of them again. Like, I mean, there are people out there who have blood on their hands that are still practicing attorneys. You know, there are prosecutors that know that they have blood on their hands, and they, they took no culpability in any of this.

>> Ky: Yeah. And see, when I do my episodes, this is the, this is the standpoint that I take, I take it from that viewpoint. And I’ve actually had the family of victims and friends of victims reach out to me and tell me that they were happy in how I portrayed their case.

>> Ky: That’s awesome.

>> Ky: Yeah.

>> Ky: So I think it’s an important thing. I think people should know that it exists. I think that people just have to also, um, you know, just, I think there’s a balance, right, between the trauma porn and, uh, you know, informative information. Help, you know, also how, like, help bring a voice to the voiceless. Right. Because, and that’s also why I still talk about my son, you know, like, he doesn’t have a voice anymore. So he relies on me to make sure that people remember him, make sure they know what happened and make sure that this doesn’t keep happening to other kids.

>> Ky: Definitely. And I, I, I thank you for your fight. And you brought me some information I didn’t even know. And now our interview is coming to a close, and I am going to go and watch some Disney Channel.

>> Ky: Oh, girl. I’m gonna be watching Netflix or I.

>> Ky: Have to watch something. This, this is, this is my ritual after each case. Uh, especially when it’s a really hard case. I, I have to decompress.

>> Ky: I, um, have balance. Right?

>> Ky: Yeah. Right.

>> Ky: That’s why I don’t listen. Because I feel like my Kate, my, my story is enough of a horror for a lifetime.

>> Ky: Oh, my God. I, I, I completely understand. And I, I thank you so much for coming on and doing this interview because that’s, this was such a heavy topic. I really, really appreciate it.

Hera McLeod: Defying Silence is the upcoming book

Hera McLeod, everyone. Seeking different is the podcast. You can find the link in the show notes below. Defying Silence is the upcoming book, and we will let you know when it’s coming out. So you can go, go, go. Bye. Bye. Bye. Support, support, support. Thank you, D. Is there anything that you want to leave us with?

>> Ky: No, I think that’s all. Take care, everyone.

>> Ky: Thank, uh, you so much, Hera.