8-Year-Old Walked Home Alone for the First Time, She Never Made It | Murder of Tori Stafford

M welcome to season three of Love and Murder. In today’s episode, we have a very special guest for you, but on a darker note, we’re telling a case of a little girl gone missing. The police think the answer is right under their nose, but are they as sure as they think they are? It’s the case of Victoria Tori Stafford right now on Love and Murder. Foreign welcome to the first episode of, uh, season three of, uh, Love and Murder, the weekly true crime podcast. I know y’ all missed hearing that because we’ve been gone for like two, three weeks. Anyway, the weekly true crime podcast discussing relationships gone terribly wrong, where our motto is, you’re either someone’s last love or. Or their first murder. I am your host, Kai, and I have a very, very special guest here for you today only for this episode and for a reason. Let us welcome the illustrious, the gorgeous, the beautiful Char A. Hello, hello.

Hello, good people.

I apparently with that applause, they really missed you. You. So Char is here as a guest host for our very first episode of season three. Now, if you want to continue hearing the dynamic duo of Kai and Char, you gotta subscribe to our patreon. Now before you ask, what’s our patreon? First of all, how do you not know what our patreon is? But anyways, we will discuss that later on in just a little bit of what Shar and Kai are doing. But Rick will be back for our regularly scheduled program next episode next week. And let’s just get into what Love and Murder is real quick for the newbies out there. So if you’re new here, our show discusses true crime cases told in the form of a story with mystery and suspense. Now, sometimes we may do a little bit of humor, but it is never at the expense of the victim. Be sure to subscribe to Love and Murder on whatever platform you’re on as well as give us a five star review. Y’ all already know we’ve been asking for this for like two years. Go to whatever platform, five stars. If you’re new here, listen, of course first and then rate us 5 stars and also welcome, welcome. You’re much appreciated.

Absolutely.

In today’s episode, we’re talking about, uh, horrible, terrible, no good, very bad, terrible case that I’m going to tell you to sit down, grab your butts, grab your apple juice and be prepared for this one. It’s going to have a lot of yalls jaws on the floor. I’m telling you, it’s a terrible case. But first, as I was talking about, our Patreon Kai and Char, because I’m speaking about us in the third person. For some odd reason, Kai and Shar are going to be doing a new segment over there where we discuss court cases and we just kind of react on it. So you’ll actually see video. It’ll be Kai and Char, and it is only for our Patreon subscribers. So if you want to. If you want to hear this, head on over to our Patreon www.patreon.com forward/love and murder and become an exclusive lamb member. We over on Patreon, you get serial killer corner, you get crazy crime. You get to know more about the host. And in season three, we. We have so much more coming up. I’m going to be. A lot of people have been asking me about, like, some of the recipes because they know I cook and everything like that. Um, sounds like, yeah, I’m going to be doing some cooking on there. Just, you know, a lot of fun things. So go on over to our Patreon www.patreon.com loveandmurder and become a subscriber of. The most popular tier is $5 and above, but we do have tiers starting at only $1. If you want to catch Kai and Char, the dynamic duo, once again, catch us on our Patreon. Oh, and also in this episode, we won’t ask Char what she’s been doing, but if you find. If you want to find out where Char’s been, head on over to our Patreon. She tells you all about it over there. That was our last bonus. A, uh, mini bonus. Last mini bonus episode that we talked about.

Yeah, I’ll spill all the juicy details. Well, some of them, anyway.

So now we’re going to get on to this show and Char, the lovely Char is joining us tonight. Like I said, this show is about Tori Stafford. Well, Victoria Stafford. They call her Tori Stafford. So we’re going to start. Roll it on back as we normally do and start at the very, very beginning. Terry Lynn McClintock was born in 1990 in Woodstock. And this whole thing takes place in. In Canada. So this is not Woodstock, Georgia.

Oh, no. Okay.

Yeah. No. So she was born to question mark because her mother’s name was never given, her father’s name was never given, but her mom was a stripper. And as soon as she was born, her mother handed her over to her best friend, whose name was Carol McClintock. And her best friend, who was a fellow stripper, raised Terri Lynn, I guess she named her and everything, because her name is Terri Lynn McClintock, which is named after the best friend. So her mom didn’t even want her from birth, handed her over to her best friend, was like, you raised her, and that was it. So when Terry Lynn was actually nine months old, Carol officially adopted her. And, you know, they just lived together as mother and child and over the next few years.

That’s strange. Wow.

You think that’s strange? I mean, not necessarily. You don’t know? No, I think.

Okay.

So.

Because the mother, the original. The birth mother, I thought at first maybe she felt like, oh, look at my lifestyle. It’s not good for a child. Um, and so I’m going to ask my friend to adopt her, but her friend does the same thing. So how is it that your friend can take care of the child and you can’t? That’s why that’s really strange.

I mean, probably the friend wanted a child, and she just didn’t want a child. She probably just wanted to continue on with her life. So that’s what happened. So, yeah, I mean, I guess in some sense it’s strange, but for them, it worked out, I guess. I don’t know. Now, over the next few years, the two lived all over Ontario, Canada. Canada.

Not Canada. Sorry. Canada. We didn’t mean it. We didn’t mean it.

They lived all over Ontario, uh, and all, and actually moved every couple of years. Kind of like they were in the military without being in the military. They lived in Gulf. And I think that’s how it’s spelled is G, U, E, L, P, H. So I think Gulf, maybe Gulf. That sounds German. So that does sound German. North Bay, Parry Sound and Muskoka. Um, so she went to school. She went to so many different schools. And at school, she says that she was bullied because people would make fun of her because she was a stripper’s daughter. So that was the whole thing that they made fun of her for. Now, she was described, and I guess it stemmed because of the cruelty of children and the abandonment of her mom and everything like that. But she was described as cruel and violent for almost her entire life. When she was just a child, she put a dog in a microwave, and then later the dog had to be put down. But then she lied about it and said the dog was hurt at another place, but it all came out, and it was just. She put a dog in a microwave? Who does that?

Oh, wow.

I can’t even imagine.

I can’t. No, no.

Uh, so when she was about four or five, it was actually revealed that she was Molested. But then her adopted mother, Carol said that as soon as she found out about it, she stopped it, which some parents don’t do. So I guess that’s a good thing that she completely put a stop to it. But still, it’s really bad that four or five. Yeah, yeah, I feel that’s terrible. Which, with all of this, that kind of explains why she was so terrible. Meaning why she was so. She was lashing out.

Yeah, exactly.

When she was about 7 and living in Gulf. Now, if that’s not how you say it, Canada, I, I am sorry.

Please let, please chime in, in the comments, guys. Let us know because we can butcher a city sometimes. It’s not intentional.

Are we just ignoring the E? So it’s Gulf or is it gulf? I, I really want to know. I seriously want to know. G U E L P H. So anyways, when she was about 7 at this time they were living in Gulf, um, children’s age, which is CPS for us, Americans started looking at her, started really like observing what was going on with her. And I guess she was, uh, they were observing her because of how she was acting in school and stuff. Now check this out. At only 8 years old, she started doing drugs. At 8 years old? Yes. I can’t even imagine why have parents.

Why have a parent if you really have to raise yourself, you know, so this, it’s like all the examples you’ve given us of dysfunction so far. I’m still asking myself, where was the adopted parent? Like even the dog in the microwave. How do you not know that your child is putting the dog in the microwave? Like, how do you just not know these things are happening? So how do you not know that your 8 year old even has access to drugs now if you’re doing drugs and they have access, that’s really, really sad.

But, but you’re assuming that the parent is not around. She could just really be assuming that.

Yes.

Yeah, but she’s a single, she’s a single mother and this daughter started out her life with her mom not wanting her, so she already feels abandoned. And then at school the children are making fun of her and that doesn’t necessarily mean that her mom’s nowhere to be found. But you cannot watch your child 24, seven.

Oh, okay, so there is that.

Anyways, at eight she started doing weed and then slowly but surely she moved up to harder drugs. And then for the next 10 years, she hasn’t even started her life yet. 10 years. She’s only 18.

18. Yeah.

For the next. Exactly. For the next 10 years she would be a heavy drug addict. Wow. So she also. Not all of this is going on. But then she also lived in two foster homes. So I guess CPS or what do they call it in Canada, Children’s Aid took her away from Carol. So she lived in about two foster homes, it may be more. And she lived in detention centers because from the age of 12 to 17 she’d actually been in and out of juvie because of fighting and just she ended up being convicted of assault and at least six times. Again, this goes back to the whole anger. She was just really angry. And uh, fueling that with drugs wasn’t really helping then even though she was in juvie, basically she was, she just kept getting in trouble. She would fight people in juvie. She wrote these letters and diary entries and in them she was threatening like the people who did her wrong. If you did her wrong, if you, I don’t know, tripped on her shoelace. And she just, you end up in.

Her book and her secret diary, like of uh, who I’m going to kill next.

So it’s funny that you said kill. She would actually use the word slaughter. She would say she would slaughter someone and at one point in time she would talk about ripping out each of their bones. And then she would sign these by saying murderous with a Z. So murderers with a Z. And that’s just how she called herself and a friend of hers. So they were the murderous, I guess.

Oh, I’m sorry to laugh, but it’s like, it’s just, it’s just, it’s just, it’s almost like you just can’t really believe it. Like people really live this way and these are children.

This ain’t nothing. You, you. It’s gonna get worse. Uh, in 2006, when she was 16, Terry Lynn ended up getting into a fight with Carol and she punched her, her adopted mother in the eye and caused her to go blind in that eye. That’s how.

Pretty hard punch. That’s pretty hard, dude.

And then in 2008, they moved in, her and Carol, they moved into a rundown two bedroom house in Woodstock. And in true attic fashion, the first people Terry Lynn got to know were the drug dealers of that town. She didn’t know anybody else, she didn’t have any friends. But she found out where the drug dealers. Mhm, exactly. And became really close with them. Now moving on to the next person in this story, Michael Rafferty was born in 1980, also in Woodstock, Hammond, Canada, to uh, well, they only gave his Mom’s name, which was Deborah Murphy. They really didn’t talk about his father, but they just said he was born to Deborah Murphy. And as a child, Michael spent some years with an aunt and uncle in Drayton, which was a village about 31 miles or 50 kilometers northwest of Gulf. Everybody described him as being like a really good looking, handsome guy. They had, they said, quote, boyish good looks. I don’t even know what that means. Boyish?

Yeah. I always wondered about that. Does it mean like youthful, young, maybe.

And that they also said that he was very charming. Now keep this in mind that he was very charming and good looking because you’re gonna need this information throughout the story.

Okay.

In 1995, when he was a teenager, he moved and went to Alexander McKenzie High School in Richmond Hill.

That was.

This is a place near Richmond Hill is like near Toronto. So, you know, if you don’t know where Richmond Hill is, I know most people know where. Toronto.

Toronto.

And so he lived there from September 95 to March of 96. So basically between the time he was 15 to like 16, uh, and while he was there in his teenage years, 15 to 16, he partied hard. He partied like it was 1999, even though it was 1996. And his friends would say that he was often seen at bars and with women and just stuff that like a 15, 16 year old shouldn’t be doing.

But I was gonna say he sounds like an old man. Like he’s just out there in the streets.

And then the thing is, even though he didn’t even have a job, he always was dressed m in the latest fashion, the most expensive clothes and all of this stuff. So how do you think he got these clothes like this? Was it all these women from the bar and stuff like that? What do you think?

I mean, it, uh, probably the five finger discount. Why not? He’s doing. Breaking all these other rules and, you know, like stealing.

I mean, you. I mean, I understand what the five finger discount is, but you think it wasn’t the women that he charmed into giving the clothes? Like we’re giving him money?

Is that like a thing for a guy to charm a woman so that he can get clo. Well, I guess maybe.

So I was about to say, where have you been? Anyway, at this time, he was also addicted to oxycontin, so he’s on drugs as well. Partying hard, you know, womanizing and, I don’t know, asking women for money or something, but at the same time on drugs. Now, sometime between 2002 and 2003, he moved to Gulf. I really hope I’m saying this right. Every time I say it, I’m like, am I saying this right?

We just cannot continue to not know. We need to know.

So he moved to Gulf between 2002 and 2003. So he was like 22, 23 at the time. And when he moved to Gulf, he worked for a meat packing plant in over there. Around that time, he met a woman named Jennifer Wilstra, who was somebody, uh, who was trying to be a veterinarian. And they dated and lived together until September 2005. So that’s about two years. And she, this woman liked to keep, like, she never missed a day of writing in her diary. And what she talked about was how their relationship was. She talked about, you know, the good, the bad and everything like that. And. And that, you know, he basically never had money. Uh, he was always between jobs and stuff like this. But all in all, there was nothing like prolific about the relationship. It’s not like he cut up her bird, her pet bird, and was like, you know, here’s Paulie for dinner. Like, he didn’t do anything that you would be like, I want to.

Yeah. Just drastic.

Yeah. It was just a regular relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With its ups and downs or whatever. Like every relationship. So on, uh, the weekend of February 14, one of the things that Jennifer talked about was that Michael had surprised her with a trip to Toronto, where they stayed at the Sheridan, went to a play and partied and just had fun. So she’s saying, you know, this is the best time of her life. He surprised her with this awesome gift, whatever. Remember I said he was charming. However, all this time, Michael was cheating on her. So this, this came out from a friend who both knew him and Jennifer and his, uh, friends were like, Michael basically cheated on everyone. Quote, he was always whining to me about his girlfriend and how she was going to leave him because he always effed up. He was always cheating on her. She’d go home and he’d stay at the bar. The next day. He’d wonder why she was mad at him. End quote. Really? Why she’s mad at him. Really? Okay, but.

So he just keeps floozies around on the side. It’s. To him.

It’s just like, according to his friends. Uh-huh. According to his friends, he was always cheating on her. And I guess she knew, but she stuck around. So I don’t know, maybe that’s why they only lasted, what, like two years or something?

Yeah.

So four months after they broke up. You ready for this?

I’m holding my breath.

Four months after they broke up, he used. I don’t know if y’ all remember LimeWire back in the day.

Now, I don’t remember that name.

I, um, know the newer generation won’t know this. Basically, when you wanted to get something for free, like a movie for free or music for free, you would have to, like. I do remember it was like, literally, you were stealing it, and you had to download it. People would have the. Like, the movie, and they would burn it. I don’t even know if children nowadays know what burning is. They would burn it, and then they would upload it to their computer, and then they would share it with everyone. It was really a, uh, an illegal practice, and a lot of people got charged. They went to jail or they had to pay fines. Uh, anyways, I know we don’t have that now because everything’s streaming everywhere, but back in the day, we didn’t have that. So four months after he broke up with Jennifer, he used LimeWire to download child pornography. Girl. Then in March 2008, him and his mom. Well, he moved to Woodstock to live with his mom and her then boyfriend, David Riddle, and their four cats. I like how they included four cats in it.

The cats.

We had to know there were four cats. Yeah. Then in April 2008, he met a woman named Charity. Spit. Spitzig. Yeah, that’s her last name. Spitzig. Charity Spitzig. Um, she was a mother of four, and she was 22 years old. By this time, he was using the dated app called Plenty of Fish. Is that still around anyway?

Definitely. It’s definitely still.

Yeah. Plenty of Fish. And that’s how he met Charity. Charity said that they saw each other at least three times a week. And Michael said he was back in school, he was taking dance courses, and he was working in the home renovation business. She thought they were in a relationship, and she was ready to take it to the next step because he seemed like such a good guy. He was like. Again, the word coming up. He was very charming. So, you know, she thought, this is the one. I found the one. So she wanted to get married. Now, this is where it takes a weird, uh, turn. They were having money problems, as sometimes couples do. Like, that’s normal. Quote, discussed ways for finances to be made easier. Me getting into the escort business, which I did, and any monies from there went directly to him. What does that sound like to you? Exactly?

I was like, we have a word for that.

Exactly. Yeah. So from M December 2008 to May 2009, she transferred $16,835 from her bank account to his bank account. She said she’d also given him cash, but she didn’t know the total of how, uh, much cash she gave him. Because, you know, you got to pay your pimp. I mean, he gonna smack you on the. On the backside with the pit with the, uh. What is it?

I better have my money.

Be. Better have my money. But that’s supposed to be his girlfriend. Good.

Business was good. 16,000. And it was in a very short time, right?

Hm. From December 2008 to May. So December.

Yeah.

January, February, March, April, May. That was only five months. $16,000.

Yeah. She was definitely. Business was really good.

You know I’m in the wrong profession, right?

I’m like, I think we should quit our day jobs right about now.

In February 2009, Michael met. Remember, he thinks. She thinks he’s exclusive to her to the point that she decided that, hey, we’re in financial difficulties. I’m going to go be an escort and give you all my money that I made. Now in 2009. Okay. Remember from December 2008 to May 2009, she’s giving him all her money. In February 2009, he meets a woman named Terry Lynn McClintock who we were talking about before.

We sure were.

So. But he met her at a New Orleans pizza outlet. And by this time. Remember I told you Terri was already taking drugs and everything like this? She was taking antidepressants, popping oxycodone.

I wonder why.

M. They were both on oxycodone, so they had something in common.

In common.

And she was doing ecstasy. She was also injected and smoking weed. I don’t understand how anybody injects anything into them. Unless it’s like. Unless you have diabetes. Um, and you have.

Yeah. Then I understand you have to.

But you make a choice to inject stuff in you. Again, I guess I have to talk about people who are doing in vitro, because that’s a choice. Okay, I’m gonna just shut up now.

Yeah. You’re going down a long needle road here. Okay. Syringes and all. That’s a lot.

So, anyway, so even though he was with Charity and literally pimping her out, he is now with Terry Lynn as well. They started going out, and she believed that they were exclusive. And so did the three other women he was seeing at the time. Wow. Um, and he was also seeing another woman named Jessica Melochi Melaki, who somehow, even though he was with all these people. He was living with her most of the time. So I wondered where everybody else thought he was when he was with Jesse.

Yeah, I was just gonna say I wonder what. Yeah, I ah. Wonder what his little spiel was.

No, he.

Because it sounds like a job, a full time job to keep everyone somewhat happy.

I mean, I guess that’s why he wasn’t working because that was his full time job.

That’s a job. That was it.

Exactly. And I mean he’s netting from this full time job. He’s netting about 16, 17,000.

So that’s not bad, you know, considering you don’t have to do anything at.

All except jumble women.

Yeah.

So he had like what, four women at this time.

That’s amazing.

That’s crazy. By the spring of 2009, Michael had met and went out with more than a dozen women.

Wow.

And Charity is still working for him.

Wow.

And now you know how people are like, well, I have a preference. I like tall women. I’m not gonna date anybody that’s like 10 years younger than me or more than 10 years older than me. I like black, white, you know, I like big boobs or big butt or big thigh. Yeah, he uh, only preference, his only preference were that they were women he didn’t care to age, he didn’t care height, he didn’t care if you had a job, he didn’t care if you had children, nothing. All he cared about was that you were on plenty of fish and that you were a woman. And that’s literally.

It’s crazy.

Oh my God. So, so what? Uh, he started on plenty of fish on, let’s see, what date in 2008 he started on plenty of fish and.

Between that website Kai, because of people like him, a lot of my friends are.

I’ve never been on any dated west.

It’s a really popular one and a lot of my friends.

But between 2008 and 2009, one year.

Mhm.

He’d already been out with dozens of women. That is, I don’t know where he finds the time.

There’s only so many hours in the day.

I mean he don’t have a job, so.

But you gotta sleep high, you have to eat. I mean it’s like he was literally.

Just, I mean, really catch his breath.

Okay, next. It sounds like an assembly line.

Uh, yeah, that was his job. Like I said, the assembly line of women. So in that same year, 2009, he reconnected with an old friend named Alexis lane, who was 30 at this time. They first met when they were in sixth grade in Drayton. And he. He did like her. He had a crush on her way back in sixth grade. So he reconnected with her in 2009, he found her on Facebook and everything like that, and she agreed to go out with him and everything like that. I mean, you know, last time she saw him, he was. What, what are you in sixth grade?

12.

Yeah. And so super kid. Now he’s a grown man. He’s been through about 56 women, so he’s. He’s kind of perfected the charming role.

He’s like a seasoned professional.

Mhm. Right. So by this time he knew exactly what to say and everything like that. So he got her to date him and they dated for about six, six weeks. He told his friends that she, Alexis, was the perfect woman. I mean, after 85 women, I have found. After 160 women, I have found the one. So he wanted her and he hoped to marry her, but he still. He still was cheating on her with other people. So I don’t know what happened. It didn’t say what happened, but they broke up a week before April 8, 2009. So keep that date in your mind. So they broke up just a week before April, uh, 8th, 2009. And I still don’t understand how he’s pulling all of this off. I just. I don’t understand it.

But yeah, it is baffling. And I mean, I’ve heard of an American gigolo. Oh, well, a Canadian gigolo.

Yeah, well, I mean, he’s still American because Canadian. Canada is still in America, but, you know, not the United States of them. Oh my God. Are you really. Are you kid. Are you kidding me right now?

Are you serious? What are you talking about?

Canada is in North America. They are still Americans.

They’re not considered America. No, you have to have a passport to go there.

Are you okay?

Uh, okay, guys, that’s another show.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, Canada is in North America. But that’s.

It’s still not considered America though. It’s not.

It is considered America. It’s not considered the United States of America. Like everybody from North America and South America are Americans. No, they’re not.

I mean, I. Look, I know Canadian citizens. I’ve never heard them say that. That doesn’t make sense. There’s nothing American ish about Canada. Except it’s. Except it just happens to be right, right above. It just happens to be right above.

Say, you know, Alaska. Americans. Just. Just like Mexicans are Americans. Like I said, you’re not from the United States of America. But you’re still an American. Are you serious?

I can’t wait to hear anybody from Sound off on this. I can’t wait to hear our. Our. They’re gonna think you’ve lost it. And I promise you they’ll be on my side. Char.

Char, you’re in for a true statement.

I’ve ever.

So that’s anybody from Canada, anybody from Mexico, anybody from Argentina, Chile, anywhere there, Brazil, even that Char who’s telling y’ all that y’ all are not Americans. You may direct your comments to her.

Okay. And I’m ready. Ready, willing and waiting. Because that’s just crazy. But nevertheless. Anywho, um, we’ll call him. We’ll still call him the American Gigolo then.

Like I said, April 8, 2009. This is a date that we are going to remember.

We will so we shall.

On April 8, 2009 at around 3:30pm cute little 8 year old Victoria Stafford, who they called Tori, left her Oliver Stevens public school to go home which was only a three block walk. This was quote the very first day she was allowed to leave school and walk home by herself. So you know, she felt like a big girl. She was like, I’m a big girl, I could make it home by myself. She was all proud. And in addition to that, that very night she was going to have a quote, room welcoming party. I called it that instead of a home, home warming party. So let’s call it a room warming party. And in her new room, in their new house, her little friends were going to come on over and have a party like pizza and everything like that to welcome her to her new room. And she was so uh, excited by this prospect. So she dressed up for school that day, end quote. And to top off her outfit, her mom, Tara McDonald allowed her to borrow her earrings. So she was wearing grown up earrings. She was walking home by her little self. Oh, you can’t tell her nothing. She was just feeling good that day. Now by 6:04pm Though, she still hadn’t returned home. And so her grandmother ended up calling the cops and reported her missing. I remember one time my daughter took the wrong bus and I didn’t know. And this was before she had a cell phone and I went to pick her up at the bus stop and she wasn’t there. And wow, I couldn’t even tell you the feeling. I couldn’t even.

When we found out what happened and.

I, yeah, I went to the school and we, I found her whatever, I just started crying I just. And the people at the front office was looking at me like I was crazy. I was like, are you serious?

Yeah, but she wasn’t on the bus. She wasn’t on the bus.

Yeah, I don’t care. My emotions were too much. I don’t care who was looking at me crazy. But anyways, so I can’t imagine how her mom and her grandmother felt. And they probably were blaming themselves because this, like I said, this was the first day she’s walking home alone and they’re like, we knew we shouldn’t have done it. Oh, my God. You know, I can’t even imagine that feeling. So when the cops arrived, they were initially suspicious of Tara because they were like, okay, your child was supposed to have been home at like 3 something. Why did you wait till 6 to call us? So you waited all this time to call us? In addition to that, what spurred their suspicion was Tara wasn’t working, which I don’t know how that’s making her suspicious, but whatever. She wasn’t working. She was addicted to drugs and she hadn’t gone out to search for her daughter. That’s suspicious to me.

It’s because she was too high.

Two seconds after I found out my daughter was missing, I was out, like, driving around aimlessly, like, what to do, what to do.

Yeah, but you had a focus. But a person that’s on drugs is not going to think clearly, you know.

Well, that’s. Yeah. So she didn’t go out look for. Look for her daughter. And this is why. The grandmother was the one who called the police, and the grandmother was the one who filed the missing persons report. So it’s like, uh, I wonder. It just seems like everybody in this story has something in common and that’s being addicted to drugs. That’s.

So it certainly is the common denominator. Like, I mean, who is not high? Who’s not high in the story? Like all day on 10, 10 different drugs, like, too much. So.

So they were initially suspicious of her mom, which, when you go more into it, I can understand why. And then during the investigation, police pulled surveillance videos spanning from Tori’s house all the way to the school. And on those videos, they saw that at 3:32pm on that day, Tori was being led down Fife Avenue in Woodstock by a woman. And this woman was wearing a white winter coat and had dark hair that was in a ponytail. So when they saw this, they were like, that is Tara. They were completely just like. They just knew it was Tara, the mother. But they went out and spoke to the witnesses at this school, and they found out. No, no, no, no. That wasn’t Tori’s mother. That’s not Tara. But they did see a woman walking with Tori. And these were just the other parents waiting, you know, waiting for their kids to come out of school. So then my question is, why the hell didn’t you stop? If, you know, this wasn’t her mom, why didn’t you say, uh, something stop. So, quote, they thought nothing of it at the time. They assumed that Tori was with her family or a friend. After all, it was broad daylight, so Abductions doesn’t happen in broad daylight. Like, what are you trying to say here?

Yeah, but I could see how it could have been an auntie or a cousin, a neighbor, just someone that she knew. I mean, another woman doesn’t look suspicious.

Uh, that’s just a fallacy. And that’s an issue. That’s sexism to me. Everybody, really.

Because that’s not your typical. When you’re given a description of, you know, a missing child and the last person they were seen with it, you don’t. I mean, if you see that, you’re not going to think, oh, there’s a lady, you know, wearing a white cloth. Something must be wrong. No, you’re just going to think that. Oh, okay. So she just went with her, her aunt. I don’t even think it looks sexist. I just think she doesn’t look, you know, unsafe.

Emily, I’m not sexist. I’m suspicious of all y’. All. It doesn’t matter. Bad woman, Old, young opportunity up in this mug. On April 13, police, you know, well, they were searching for her all this time. So on April 13, police called off the ground search and allowed everyone to return back to school on the 14th. Then on April 25, 2009, the case was actually featured in an episode of America’s Most Wanted. And in that episode, it reported that the initial investigation was led. Was first led by local police, which I guess that’s what initial means. And then it was later turned into a joint investigation with the Ontario Provincial Police, and it changed from a missing person investigation into an abduction case. Wow. While all this was going on, a few days later, Terry Lynn, y’ all remember her, Was arrested and placed in the Genus Detention center in London. Still Canada, not England, Uh, because she had violated her probation.

So basically, shame on her.

She wasn’t doing what she was supposed to be doing. So is basically, her probation was probably like, don’t do drugs. And she probably went right back. Exactly. Now, while she was in the detention center, Michael called and visited her every single day. Their calls, of course, were recorded. And what do we say here at Love and Murder about whenever someone commits a crime? They probably forgot a bird. No, no, no. We say here, if you’re going to commit a crime, make sure you have as much evidence on and around your person as possible. Make sure you speak openly and candidly around everyone you meet and on recorded phone lines about the crime that you committed. So if you’re going to commit a crime, make sure you tell everybody and.

Have all evidence, any details.

Yeah, exactly.

Because, you know, anyway, that’s why we call them the dumbest criminals. This is just dumb things they do.

Anyway, in one call, Terry Lynn told Michael that she would take the blame if it ever came down to it. Like, that’s what she said. Quote, I’m just an 18 year old junkie anyway, so I’ll take the fall for everything. So now the question is, take the fall for what?

No, yeah, I was gonna say she.

Exactly, exactly. Like, let’s. Let’s talk, you know, inmate to prison guard, I guess.

Let’s talk.

On May 12, this was the last time Michael came to visit her. And in that visit, she touched his face and he laughed, I guess, at her and said, quote, you’ll do anything for a bit of love, eh? Okay, so then that was May 12. So then May 19, Terry Lynn said was. Was like, hey, officer, Hey, I have something to say. I have some very important information that you’re going to want to know and you’re going to want to take me seriously. I want to talk. So they were like, okay. So they took her to the interrogation room, and during some hours of interrogation, Terri Lynn sang like a bird.

They always do.

Always do. Now, this is what she said. She told investigators that she was the one in that video. Well, she didn’t say she was in the video because she didn’t know they had a video. But she was the one who lured Tori to a car where Michael was waiting. And the way she did that is she told Tori that she had some puppies to show her the old puppy trick.

The old puppy trick? Yeah.

Uh-huh. So then when. When the baby got to the car. I call her a baby, but she was 8 when she got to the car. You know, they abducted her and they got onto the 401 highway and headed east. Now, listen to this crazy turn of events. They first went to Gulf. Over in Gulf, Michael stopped to buy some Percocet pills. He got that from a friend and then he went to an ATM to take out some money. And then they went to Home Depot, where Terry Lynn bought a hammer and green garbage bags. Finally, they drove into Wellington County. Countryside. In the countryside. This is where Michael raped Tori. Then he washed his genitalia with bottle. With water. From some bottle. So, like, bottled water? And then they murdered her. And this is what Terry Lynn is just telling them. So, of course, Terry Lynn was arrested because wtf? Like, are you serious?

Yes.

And she was charged with being an accessory to murder. Were you gonna say no?

She’s literally just. She’s just like, hey, I’m just gonna hand this over to you on a. On a platter with, uh, with extra sauce, you know, and gravy and everything. Here, you can have it. I’m gonna tell you everything. I mean, they didn’t even have to beat it out of her. Usually, interrogation. The interrogation room, you’re being interrogated. But she was just like, okay, I’m just gonna tell you everything. Like, I wonder why.

Usually in the interrogation, the cops come to you, not you go to the cops, so.

Well, that’s true.

I guess. Yeah. So Terry Lynn was arrested, of course, and charged with being an accessory to murder and also some other lesser charges. The next day, on May 20, 2009, police, of course, visited Michael at his house. Like, hey, what’s up? But when they got there, you know, knocked on the door, everything. You know, Michael, blah, blah, blah. His demeanor was that of cockiness and relaxation. Like, he was just like, whatever.

He was, like, super chill. Like, what’s up?

The officers asked him, had you heard about. Have you been hearing the news? Like, this little girl Victoria, is missing and everything like that. And Michael said, quote, just the stuff on the news. That’s how he heard. That’s what he said he heard. It was just whatever the news said. And then he said, they’re like, well, why were you really tuning into this in the news? Like that? Seems, you know. And he said, well, I had to keep an air out because, you know, you know, I want to help. What. What the hell would you want to.

Help with the search? I mean, uh.

I mean, what? I. I guess, anyways, then he just started randomly talking about all his girlfriends or some girls that he knew. And then he started telling the officers about jobs that he was working and, you know, just started rambling on or whatever. And then the cops were like, yeah, yeah, I hear. I, uh, hear all that. But we ain’t hear about you. Let’s get back to Tori. Do you know who this woman named Terry Lynn is. And Michael was like, he only knew her name was Terry Lynn. He said, but I don’t know her last name. So he’s acting like he knows her in passing. Like, you know, I’ve seen her a couple times. I know she’s Terry Lynn, but she sounds familiar. Exactly. And police were like, really? Well, she sure knows you. And they arrested him. You have the right to remain F’d. I was gonna say the F. The right to remain F’d. And he. They charged him with first degree murder and brought him down to the station. In the meantime, Terry Lynn decided she was going to help police search for Tori’s remains. And of course not by now she has a lawyer. And he went out and stated that his client, quote, wants Tori’s family to know that she is trying hard to find her body. If I was Tori’s family, that’s really.

Going to put me at ease.

I’d be like, you know what? Tell her to come over my house. I just wanna. I just wanna tell her that we forgive her. I just. I just wanna have a cup of tea with her and tell her we forgive her. Just bring her over real quick. I’m, um, gonna pour all this Clorox and bleach and everything down her freaking throat. Uh, like, Tori’s family wants you to know that she’s trying hard to find her body. How about not killing my child in the first place?

Uh, you know, the families always want. Tend to want closure by finding the body, but that is not going to bring her back. Like, how dare you? You know, and again, you have this change of heart after the fact.

Uh, I’m just like, is the lawyer stating this? Like, she’s so sorrowful and she just wants you to know that she’s trying hard to find the body. Oh, I couldn’t be a lawyer. I couldn’t be a lawyer. I’d be the worst lawyer.

Yeah, you was.

I’d be like, guilty. Be like, kai, isn’t that your.

Strangling the defendant?

I would be slapping that. How could you kill her? You’re so stupid.

What’s the matter?

I would be the worst lawyer. Okay, now, it’s interesting to note that neither Terry Lynn or Michael were even on the cop’s radar.

They.

If she didn’t come and open her mouth, they might have found out about them looking at the video and just doing more investigation. But at that point in time, they. They weren’t anywhere on the cop’s radar, so.

Wow.

Yeah. So then people are like, well, why did she just come out and say this to the cops? So, uh, one theory is that she told the cops because she heard that Michael was messing around with other women while she was in prison.

Then there’s another revenge angle.

Exactly. Then there’s another theory that says, um, Michael was supposedly, I’ll say, allegedly questioned on May 15. And then he called her while she was in prison and told her that he wouldn’t be visiting or calling her for a while. And then another theory was because she thought it was the right thing to do, which I call, and I more believed the first one, that he was cheated on her and she was like, oh, for real? Exactly. So that’s the one that I believe. Exactly.

Oh.

Oh, for real? You gonna cheat on me? Okay. I’m gonna show you hurt. Now, during the investigation, police saw Michael’s Honda Civic on surveillance video. And it was near the school three times during the day that Tori went missing. So they don’t have kids. So it’s like, why are you just circling the school? Like, why are you here? You know what I’m saying? So that seems suspicious. The video also, like, other videos also showed that, um, Michael was at the ATM and he pulled out the money, just like Terry Lynn said. And it shows Terry Lynn at the Home Depot, just like she said she went and bought those green trash bags and stuff. And the only thing is, Tori wasn’t in any of the videos. But they undisputedly. Is it undisputedly or indisputedly? Either way, disputedly, the opposite said that knew that she was there because her DNA was found in a blood detection in the rear of the car. Of the Honda Civic. Of Michael’s Honda Civic. So her was found in his car. Yeah, exactly. So now what is your excuse? Like, how are you gonna charm this one away? You know what I’m saying? And in one spot, there was a gym bag found in the car. And on that gym bag, Tori’s blood was mixed with Michael’s blood. How are you going to charm that one away?

Yeah, how, Mr. Charlie?

Exactly. Exactly. So then on May 28, 2009, Terry Lynn’s charges were changed to first degree murder and an unlawful confinement charge. And then it also came out that both her and Michael were going to be tried separately, so it wasn’t going to be a joint trial.

Well, what is, uh, what is unlawful confinement? Is that kidnapping? Is that the same thing?

Basically, like, they were holding her against her will?

Yeah, that’s. But that’s kidnapping. Okay, that’s the same thing. Yeah, I just figured it was just.

A different way to say it.

Yeah, yeah.

So during the investigation. Because they’re still investigating, because remember, they haven’t found Tori yet. They haven’t found any sign of her yet. So during the investigation it was also revealed that Terry Lynn, check this out. Lived only about four blocks from Tori’s house. So she was literally their neighbor.

So she might have been watching her anyway, you know, just in general. I mean, she’s a close neighbor. Like, hey, I got, I got one for you.

But that, that would explain why Tori went with her because she knew her. So it wasn’t like she was even with a stranger. She knew her.

Yeah, because in the beginning I was like, mhm.

Yeah, in the beginning I was like, why did Tori go with her? But then I just chalked it up to it being children. And that’s how children are.

Well, you know, I did say aunt or neighbor. I said it could be an auntie, you know, mother, sister or a neighbor. And so that’s why I didn’t see her as being someone suspicious as the last person that they saw. Yeah, the last. I mean, it just makes sense.

Yeah, children.

So then on neighbors.

So then on July 19, after 103 days of being missing, Detective Sergeant Jim Smith reported that Tori’s badly decomposed remains were found. And they were found under a rock pile in the countryside of Ontario, near Mount Forest. Now Tori’s body was found in what, green trash bags, remember?

Yeah, well, I remember. Made that stop.

Green trash bag, huh? Uh-huh. And she was naked from the waist down. She was only wearing a Hannah Montana T shirt and she was wearing those earrings that she had borrowed from her mother.

Yeah.

And the lower half of her body was just crazy decomposed. So of course police took the body in. They had to verify that it was Tory Lynn and everything like that. During the autopsy, it was determined that she had been beaten. And this beating was so severe that it caused lacerations to her liver. That’s how badly this little girl was beaten. And she had 16 broken ribs and.

Oh, that was unnecessary. Why did they do that?

And she was basically beaten in the head with a claw hammer to the, to the point that her face was just, it was just smashed in. And so they said that’s what killed her. But even if that didn’t happen, the laceration to her liver and her 16.

She would have bled internally anyway. Exactly. She was just basically suffering from every possible angle of, you know, that poor child. That’s a lot. That’s A lot to endure.

On, um, July 21, 2009, it was confirmed that this body, these remains were Toris. And then so they took Michael in for an interview. And I’m going to try and find the video of this interview and post it in our Patreon for our lambs. But apparently this is a really. I don’t even know. Just this interview is four hours long and people have watched it a lot. I haven’t seen it, but I’m very interested.

I can’t even imagine. I wonder, like, what, what’s his personality though? Was he narcissistic?

Well, glad you asked that because it does, it does say. Yeah.

Or his demeanor. Like what was. Yeah.

So I’m going to try and find this interview. No, I didn’t watch it yet. Yeah, I know I didn’t really do my due diligence as a true crime podcaster, but I haven’t watched it yet. But, um, this is a four hour long interview and it was done with three, three experienced police office police officers, one of which was Detective Sergeant Jim Smith, who he was famous for getting the sex killer Russell Williams to confess to two murders. So he got a killer to confess and he’s in there with Michael. And, uh, Michael didn’t bat an eyelid. He was just there. He didn’t say crap in four hours. And the officers tried everything. They even brought in Terry Lynn and was like, you gonna say she’s a liar? You gonna say she’s a liar? Tell her to face, tell her to her face that she’s lying.

And he still didn’t budge. Really?

No, he said, quote, uh, terry is a liar. That’s what he said. Wow. So at one point Officer Smith said to Michael that, quote, this is the next Paul Bernardo, whether you like it or not. So for those of you who don’t know Paul Bernardo is a serial killer, well, it’s made up of a duo. It’s like two people and they were serial killers. And it was Bernardo and Carla Homolka from the early 90s. And we’re gonna do a serial killer corner in our Patreon at some point about them. So he said, basically, you’re the next Paul Bernardo. You and, uh, Terry Lynn.

Yeah, but that makes, but that’s like gloating. It makes, just imagine, it makes a killer feel like, yeah, I can get away with this. And like, I did something amazing, like, I’m super fit, I’ll be super famous. And, and I, I, I should be, like, praised and like, I’m some, I don’t Know, like, I just. I don’t like that. I mean, why would you? It’s almost like you’re petting them on the back and saying, yeah, good job.

Uh, I don’t think he was trying to pat them on the back. I think he was just trying to say, like, you’re gonna. You’re gonna crack just like Bernardo’s did. You’re gonna crack. Oh, I thought.

I thought they were saying, this case is so heinous and so disturbing and you’re, you know, you’re just like them. And they were famous serial killers. Like, I don’t know. But I mean, uh, I mean, it.

Could possibly be both. I’m not sure. But I’m more thinking that y’ all did a similar crime and we’re gonna crack you just like we cracked them. That’s what I know.

That would make more sense to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then they even brought in a behavioral science detective, Detective Constable Chris Loam, and he questioned Michael several times and he still didn’t crack. He still didn’t say anything.

Wow.

Officer Smith brought in pictures of Tori, you know, the decomposed body, everything like that. Brought in all these pictures, brought in pictures of her when she was alive. You know, look at this cute little girl, blah, blah, blah. Shoved it in Michael’s face. But he just sat there looking at a wall like, uh, wonder what the score is?

What else you got?

Exactly. So then after a while, he did look down at the pictures and Officer Loam told him that he could choose between two public images of himself. You could either be seen as a cold blooded, remorseless killer like Bernardo, or you could be seen on someone like Michael. I don’t know how you say this name. Brier.

Who?

Michael Brier. He had done basically the same thing and we’ll do an episode of him. So he’d basically done the same thing. But when he was caught, he apologized. Then he explained why he did it and his reasoning for explaining why he did it. So it was so that this would never happen to another child and parents would know how to protect their children. So he was telling him, seen as a remorseful.

Remorseful, yes.

Or remorse less killer. And Michael was like. Or I could be seen as these nuts. And he still didn’t say anything. So he just was, yeah, exactly.

Like, it’s not funny, but you’re crazy.

Oh, it’s like, no matter what, Michael did not say anything. No, just stone face, nothing. But they were like, yeah, well, whatever. We have all the evidence we need. So on April 30th, 2010, Terry Lynn was scheduled to make an appearance in court. But a publication ban, maybe that’s a Canadian thing. A publication ban was imposed by the judge on the events of the day. But then on December 19, 2010. So that’s April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December. Eight months, eight months later, the ban was lifted. And when the ban was lifted, it showed that Terry Lynn had pled guilty to first degree murder. Now, she was then sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. I mean, there should be no chance of parole.

That’s what I was gonna say. If it’s no chance.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This isn’t the US Is. It’s Canada. This is their law. They do give you chance of parole in 25 years. I forgot about that.

Then they put, like, a number on it. Like, okay, so there is a chance.

I mean, yeah, you have a chance of parole for 25 year in 25 years. But that’s like. That doesn’t mean you’re getting out. You just have.

Yeah, but what is the point of saying life then? That’s not life. If there’s ever a chance of parole, that’s Canada’s law.

They allow you to lead, uh, your case, show that you’ve gotten better, and then they might let you out. So she was then sent to Grand Valley Institution for Women in, uh. Oh, my gosh, what’s this name? Kitchener. Kitchener, Ontario. So then, January 14th, 2012. So this is like two years later, Terry Lynn. Actually, not two years, because she was sentenced in January 19th. Um, sorry, in December 19th. So that’s basically January 2011. So, yeah, a year later. So let’s say a year later, Terry Lynn decided to change her story. So she called up Detective Smith and she said, look, I want to tell you all the truth. And the truth is, I’m the one who did all of it. I raped the little girl. I killed a little girl. I’m the one who did all of this. However, the way she was telling the story, it didn’t make sense to police. So they kind of didn’t believe her.

Even hearing it on my end. And I didn’t even get the details.

Well, for instance, at one point in time, she said, quote, maybe I didn’t walk away from the car, but he called me back in the car. So I went back in the car and I killed her. What?

So she’s. She’s really just starting to. She’s slipping. Look, she’s losing her mind. And Mentally, she’s slipping away. And I think that she doesn’t know the difference of reality from what, you know, from back to.

I think that’s what it is. Or you think Mr. Charming, Prince Charming there was Charming his way into her heart, and she was like, you know what? You really do love me. I’ll take the fall for it. I really think it’s not that she was losing her mind. I think that he charmed the shit out of her. On March 5, 2012, that’s when Michael’s trial started. He. His trial was for kidnapping, sexual assault, and first degree murder. Of course. Char, what did he plead? Not guilty, your honor. Not guilty to first degree murder, kidnapping, and sexual assault. He said I had nothing to do with it. Didn’t you hear what Terry said? It was all her.

It wasn’t me.

It wasn’t me. Yeah. So then in opening statement, crown attorney Kevin Gowdy told the jurors that was when they hear from Terry Lynn, quote, you will unquestionably be disturbed by the choices she made with Michael Rafferty to bring this all about. The jurors were also told by Ontario, Ontario Superior Court judge Thomas Heaney that while Michael may, quote, occasionally be referred to as the accused, they were to take no negative inference from the term because it is simply a, uh, label to describe one of the participants in a trial. What? Are you serious? I mean, I think that’s a Canadian thing. I think that’s. Yes.

I was just gonna say we’re already figuring out a lot of this.

Wow. It’s just. Wow.

That are just really.

He also warned to us, because, you know, we’re not from there.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, he also warned a jury that they will hear graphic and disturbing evidence during the course of the trial. And, yeah, they heard graphic and disturbing evidence. In opening statements, attorney Crown Gowdy said that the Crown will present video surveillance and BlackBerry records. So phone records that show that Michael was directly responsible for Tori’s disappearance. Disappearance. And that there were witnesses that saw Terry Lynn take Tori. Um, there was video surveillance. Pathology will testify that Tori died as a result of multiple hammer blows to the head. And there’s DNA evidence in Michael’s car linked to Tori’s disappearance. So basically, they said, no matter what he says, we have all the evidence right here and we can show it to you.

Yes. I, um, mean, try to wiggle your way out of that one, Mr. Charmer.

Exactly. Now, Tori’s mother would be the first to testify, and I cannot even imagine. They also spoke to a Bunch of witnesses who, who saw Terry Lynn with her with Tori today, like I said, Tori today, Tori that day, like I said. And this, there’s a whole breakdown of the trial which I won’t go into right now, else we’ll be here for another hour. But if you want to hear the breakdown of the trial, which I will go ahead and do, go ahead and join our patreon at the $5 or above tier and I will go into even more detail in the trial. You want to hear it, you don’t want to miss it because this was an insane trial. Just imagine Michael wasn’t saying anything in a four hour interview. So how do you think the trial is going to go? Yes. So, uh, like a circus now during the 10 week trial, Michael constantly, for some odd reason chewed on ice and became as quote, the man chewing ice in the prisoner’s box. I mean you could have kind of shortened it, but okay. I mean, and I’ll actually, when I go into more about the trial, they actually talk more about this as well. And uh, as you can imagine, during the entire 10 week trial, Michael didn’t speak at all, at all. He just stood there staring at people or, or sat there staring at people chewing on ice and all of this stuff. And remember his, the girlfriend he had met when they were what, in sixth grade and everything like that. She came in, she talked about their relationship and when she came in, she was the only one that he was like weird. She came in and he just like piped up, sat up straight and stared at her all the way while she walked to the stand. Stared at her intensely while she was on the stand and stared at her as she walked out. Like what was this supposed to mean? I love that.

Could be an intimidation.

No, I don’t think so. That’s the one. Remember this is the one that he said was his perfect woman.

Uh, yeah, yeah. They wrote together for all of six.

So I don’t think he was trying to intimidate her. I think he was trying to charm her. Like look, I’ve only got eyes for you while I’m back here for child pornography. Child rape? Are you serious? Anyways, uh, during the trial it was reported that Michael was a sexual. Sexual. Was a sexual deviant who went online for child pornography and uh, had this weird kink for sexual choking and torture sex. Okay.

I mean, well, you know, that is a thing.

I mean, I mean I. Yeah, um, he was actually really, really active on his dating app on April 9, which was the day after Tori disappeared. Disappeared. And it showed that he contacted several women at the same time. And he even had sex with a woman on that day. Like he just killed the kid. And this is what he’s doing. That is, that is so heinous. Now, between January 25 and April 7, 2009, he had downloaded a bunch of child porn onto his laptop. And if y’ all want to hear, um, a, uh, getting to know the whole story where one of us knew somebody who got chip, who got clips, I guess, for child pornography, then, uh, head on over to our Patreon and you could hear that weird story over there. On March, uh, 13th, 2009, Michael had Googled, quote, children for sale and quote, sale of babies. What?

Uh, just when I didn’t think you can get any worse.

Children for sale and sale of babies. Like, you’re kidding me. And then on March 30, he was dating this woman. He found this woman online. He started dating her. She had a baby who was still in the crib. And he asked her if, if her daughter would, quote, snuggle up with us tonight. Ill, like if, if you were dating somebody, Shar, and your son was like nine months old and he was like, hey, your son’s gonna snuggle with us tonight. What would you do?

I would just freak out like, this guy is probably a serial killer or something, dude.

Uh, and even just.

Yeah, that’s really.

Even after that, he asked her if she would give him her firstborn child. And then after, after they saw that the next day is when Tori disappeared. So he was, yeah, he was building up to this. So on May 11, 2012 at 9:18pm the jury found Michael guilty of every single charge there was. Well, not there was, but what they charged him with, they found him guilty of all of it. On May 15, 2012, he was sentenced to life. Life in prison with no chance of parole, you know, for 25 years. What they do in Canada. There you go. Exactly. Um, and he was sent to the Kingston Penitentiary. Now, this jerk had the cojones that on July 26, 2012, he appealed his conviction, stating that, quote, the judge’s instructions to the jury were flawed. So that means I’m not guilty of murdering this child, you know, because his instructions were flawed. But the 30 day deadline to do the appeal had passed. And he said, yeah, I know, because I couldn’t use the phone because I was in jail. So then the court was like, well, okay, we’ll give you an extension. Uh, they granted him an extension to file his appeal. Yes, girl, all the conveniences of home.

In a Canadian prison.

This will not be happening in Texas. Florida. Can you, can you believe that?

Oh, absolutely. Uh, not.

On June 10, 2013, he appeared by video to plead his case. And when he turned on his camera, he just saw the judges and lawyers with the middle finger up and they basically, you know, was like, no, we’re not. Yeah, whatever. We, we drew this out to make you think you had something to say. But no, f you go back to.

Jail, you’re going under the jail.

Exactly. Um, so he’s basically still in jail now on October 18th. October. Why am I speaking all weird now? On October, October 18th, Terry, uh, Lynn was moved from her prison to a native. How do I put this? A, uh, Healing Lodge of the natives in Canada. But the thing is, she tried to say she was a native, but it was never confirmed that she was a native. You know what I’m saying? And her family was saying.

So they sent her to a spa.

Practically, dude, the Healing Lodge, because she said she was a native, so they had to send her with her.

No, I get that part.

But I’m like that just exactly what kind of reform is exactly like. And then her family, it was not ever confirmed that she was a native. And her family members even came out and was like, we’re white. Like, what are you doing?

We’re not Indian. Sorry.

So the lodge, the native lodge was actually a minimum security prison and it was unfenced, but they watched it 24 hours a day with video cameras. That’s it. So literally she could have just got gotten up and ran out or whatever. Yeah, so they went through.

She got to take a bath in some hot springs and you know, it’s a couple of massages.

I mean, look.

Yeah, I mean that’s crazy.

That’s insane. But they went through a whole process of like debating this and trying to fight it and it was actually overturned on November 7th. It, it did show that she wasn’t a native. What are you doing out here? You killed an 8 year old. F you woman. Take your ass back to federal prison. And then they tightened the regulations for transferring long term prisoners to healing lodges. Uh, so they made it stricter. So then she was transferred to the multi level Edmonton Institution for women. And uh, that people, is a devastating, horrible, horrible case of Victoria Stafford. The precious baby is dead. And the two boneheads that was behind it are behind bars for life. Well, you know, with a, uh, possibility of per parole in 25 years.

Yeah, ah, that Canadian possibility things welcome.

But yeah, so I just want to Say thank you so much for joining us tonight. Um, although it was a terrible case, you were here for the first episode of season three, and. I know. Yeah, well, you know what?

I. I mean, I’m actually. I was. I was feeling, um, I don’t know, honored to come back. You know, it’s been. It’s been a long time, and I. I figured if I’m going to come back, um, you know, in my own honorary way, it should be a really, really gruesome case, uh, something that I’ll never forget.

Well, it’s. And like, uh, we always say it was good to go big or go home, you know? Yeah, of course.

You did it really big. Unfortunately, it’s all true.

Unfortunately. Yeah.

Yeah, so it is. This has been. This has been, um. It’s been good, you know, to join you again. So thank, uh, you, everyone, for listening, too, and even bearing through it with us. But, yeah, I didn’t know anything about the case as many times, you know, you don’t on the show, so.

And if you still want to hear Kai and Shar, as many of y’ all have been asking me for the past how many months, don’t forget, you can head on over to our, uh, Patreon. Www.patreon.com forward/loveandmurder. And we have a new corner coming out, which is. We haven’t named it yet, but basically we’re reacting to court videos together.

Um, yeah, it’ll be fun, guys. In our own Kai and Char. Very twisted sarcastic banter. You guys will love it, though.

So I know y’ all haven’t heard this from us in a long time, but we want to remind y’ all that it’s always all love and no murder, y’. All.

Goodbye, everyone.

Good night.